The mysterious unexplained disappearance of Kāya and Vitakka in the Jhānas by B. Sujato

It’s also obvious to bilingual people that there is no one-to-one function between the words of two languages which preserves meaning.

Part of my job is giving feedback on students’ academic papers which they write in English, but their native language is not English. Almost always the genuinely funny English bloopers come from a naive direct translation which makes sense in their native language, but makes no sense in English.

If there was a one-to-one function between the words of languages that preserved meaning, there would be no translators or academic fields like natural language processing or machine translation; we would just have to find the function and we could make a computer do the translation for us.

The idea that you have to translate according to a one-to-one correspondence between Pali and English words is an incredibly naive approach to translation. To me, this approach only makes sense from the perspective of someone who 1) is fluent only in English and 2) has never been exposed to the academic ideas behind translation.

When I read the academic writing of someone who is translating word-for-word their native language into English – this is how I can tell they are not good at English.

Like, the fact that Ven. Sujato is able to go beyond a mere dictionary lookup is actually a sign that he knows Pali really well.

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Yup. Desputing over this is trivial to me and I am probably not gonna engage in it any further. Last time I did I think it was mid-summer.

If anyone thinks people are gonna miss out on jhana because of some choice words in one translation work then that’s a shame. It’s also nonsense. If your meditation success depends on meeting specific criteria from a linguistic discription then you’re more likely to fabricate the description into your mind rather than have the actual experience for yourself. You shouldn’t be going through a checklist like an airline pilot just prior to take off. Not the best approach for meditative-absorption.

120 years ago Ajahn Sao taught “buddho” breath meditation and never elaborated on it to students. “Just go do it, don’t question.” I imagine plenty of people got to first jhana without a detailed linguistic map, reported back to Ajahn Sao their extraordinary experiences and were told “welcome to jhana.” Even if you don’t know what jhana is and just do breath meditation you’ll know of this extraordinary state you can achieve. No checklist needed. Semantics hold little weight.

Just my two cents.

Cheers.

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So it means you just repeated “Buddho”, didn’t question it, and are liberated now?

Please, if you describe it in such easy terms, then you seem to suggest that liberation is easy and yourself are liberated because you followed your own advice. If you’re not, how can you suggest it’s simple? People are struggling in different ways - not just your way.

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No, I think it means you just repeat “Buddho”, don’t question it, and are liberated eventually, maybe, if that’s your karma. IMO

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What if, yes, samadhi is essential, but not necessarily the jhana form? Particularly when the exact nature of jhana is a matter of debate, i.e. interpretation where the EBTs don’t unambiguously define it, at least in terms that contemporary commentators can agree on.

The (written) EBTs were extracted from oral traditions, which continued to develop, e.g. with the famous ancient commentaries. In fact, interpretations across the whole 2.5 millennia are all essentially commentaries (including those voiced in these discussions).

Then there’s the Mahasi approach (counterbalance to the PaAuk method at the other extreme) which presents, on the basis of the written traditions and lineages of practice, viable alternatives to the fixation on jhana as the exclusive samadhi needed for liberation…

And most modernist emphasis on the “problems” surrounding jhana is pressed by (lay) “authorities”, relying on modernist linguistic analysis (and associated other biases), which is as yet a relatively immature field.

This is to suggest that the entire “jhana wars” phenomenon frames, narrows the issue to a scope which perpetuates itself in ongoing dukkha – i.e. the struggles people go through trying to figure it out in their own practice.

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I am only a beginner. I have practiced meditation according to the Teaching (at least to the best of my ability and understanding) for less than one year. Here is my perspective on this debate.

There are a ton of translations out there besides @Sujato’s. I doubt that anything will make them go away at this point. Nor should they go away. If they contain the truth, and if this one doesn’t, then the truth will survive to be investigated by others. Practitioners will do best to investigate for themselves and decide accordingly.

But wait, you say! What if this one point is just too important? What if it’s going to throw people off the Path?

To that I have a simple answer. Probably the most interesting modern thing I’ve read about advanced meditative states is B. Thanissaro’s “Jhana Not by the Numbers,” which seems to speak more or less directly to this discussion. Here is the part I think is especially apt:

[A]s a teacher, [Ajaan Lee] tried to instill in his students these qualities of self-reliance, ingenuity, and a willingness to take risks and test things for themselves. He did that not only by talking about these qualities, but also by forcing you into situations where you’d have to develop them. Had he always been there to confirm for you that, “Yes, you’ve reached the third jhana,” or, “No, that’s only the second jhana,” he would have short-circuited the qualities he was trying to instill. He, rather than your own powers of observation, would have been the authority on what was going on in your mind; and you would have been absolved of any responsibility for correctly evaluating what you had experienced. At the same time, he would have been feeding your childish desire to please or impress him, and undermining your ability to deal with the task at hand, which was how to develop your own powers of sensitivity to put an end to suffering and stress. As he once told me, “If I have to explain everything, you’ll get used to having things handed to you on a platter. And then what will you do when problems come up in your meditation and you don’t have any experience in figuring things out on your own?”

Right view seems to come to the fore here; each person must develop independently the type of right view that allows them to discern meditative attainments themselves. Other approaches, like following set formulas – made out of words! – are perhaps not so good, for just the reasons stated.

Even way back where I am in this stuff, it still seems obvious to me that it’s better to have one meditator who knows what he sees in his mind – and we should prefer this to the most perfect and detailed word-picture of the meditation of the Buddha.

Words have never been terribly good at making maps of the mind. At times we may find, in describing a mind state, that it is well captured, if not completely captured, by a set of words and their opposites, a condition that the philosopher G.W.F. Hegel called “sublation” (Aufhebung).

And if that can happen elsewhere, then maybe it’s happening here? I really don’t know. I would welcome a peaceful resolution to this matter, however, even if it must be done only by covering it over with grass.

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All I see is people trying desperately to prove they are in jhana. Its an ego trip, or people trying square what must belong in a round hole.

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For what its worth, my opinion on this highly debated topic is a boring and conciliatory one. Both sides are right because the pali terms involved like jhana and vitakka have a broad semantic field, and they are not super precise technical terms like we’d like them to be.

Translating vitakka as thinking or placement is really not going to make much of a difference either, because all meditators will start with a coarse “thinking about meditation” anyways, and later it will get more and more subtle as they gain more experience.

Its a [mostly] pointless argument, basically.

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…because subtle verbal thought and placing the mind (samadhi) are both qualities that are found in the first jhana. Under the circumstances…

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But wait! Don’t go! There’s more! :grin:

dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ --AN9.35

It actually seems that we have missed dhammehi (Dhamma+ EhI!) in all this worry about two v-words.
I.e., what should we be thinking and placing the mind on and contemplating and connecting to?

The Dhamma. Not the jhana.

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I share with many of you the understanding that we have our individual journeys. But, as I have come to understand the mind, we totally underestimate the importance of language. We are born into language, what ‘we’ are is based on language, our experience and emotions use language as a ladder to climb into our consciousness, the unconscious is structured like a language.

An important part of the journey is the consensual ‘brainwash’ by the Buddha-Dhamma. A Dhamma outside of language is a fiction - how can you practice if you don’t rely on your unconscious having a grasp of the journey you’re hoping it to take?

When I build my own language around the experiences I acquire, the new word-meanings still center around fundamental words and concepts, like the crystal around the speck of dust in a snow-flake. No matter if you personally struggle for words or not, your mind and unconsciousness will put it in concepts, words and images for you. And it makes sense to me that some people in the discourse struggle for these words. It’s not a job for everyone, but I think it’s important in order for the Dhamma to stay relevant.

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The ‘dhammehi’ there is qualified by ‘akusalehi’. It’s what you are secluded from not what you’re focusing on.

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That is certainly the best way to go about it. Sometimes the search results are too numerous, depending on the query, so people will ask for help to sort through the avalanche of information. Or they may not know which terms to use for their query and start a new topic to get assistance.

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Actually, I read the Pali differently:

vivicca is separating oneself from (instr.), aloof from
akusalehi is not good, not right; evil, harmful, not conducing to well-being; evil, acting wrongly.
Therefore vivicca akusalehi is secluded from unskillful qualities

Because of this, I would read dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ as a phrase. And that phrase, I believe tells us to focus on the Dhamma as the first jhana. Perhaps one of the Bhante’s might chime in here?

I’d like to draw attention to some partial parallels of MN118, with English translations ranging the span of possible meanings.

When a mendicant is breathing in heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing in heavily.’ When breathing out heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing out heavily.’ … They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe in stilling the physical process.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe out stilling the physical process.’ At such a time a mendicant is meditating by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. Why is that? Because the breath is a certain aspect of the body, I say. Therefore, at such a time a mendicant is meditating by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.

https://suttacentral.net/sn54.13/en/sujato
[SN54.13]
(translated by Sujato Bhikkhu)

When breathing in heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing in heavily.’ When breathing out heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing out heavily.’ When breathing in lightly they know: ‘I’m breathing in lightly.’ When breathing out lightly they know: ‘I’m breathing out lightly.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe in experiencing the whole body.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe out experiencing the whole body.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe in stilling physical processes.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe out stilling physical processes.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn54.1/en/sujato
[SN54.1]
(translated by Sujato Bhikkhu)

  1. While breathing in long, he knows as it really is: I am breathing in long, while breathing out long, he knows as it really is: I am breathing out long.

  2. While breathing in short, he knows as it really is: I am breathing in short, while breathing out short, he knows as it really is: I am breathing out short.

  3. While breathing in and experiencing the whole bodily conditions he knows as it really is: I am breathing in and experiencing the whole bodily conditions, while breathing out and experiencing the whole bodily conditions he knows as it really is: I am breathing out and experiencing the whole bodily conditions.

  4. While breathing in and experiencing joy he knows as it really is: I am breathing in and experiencing joy, while breathing out and experiencing joy he knows as it really is: I am breathing out and experiencing joy.

  5. While breathing in and experiencing pleasure he knows as it really is: I am breathing in and experiencing pleasure, while breathing out and experiencing pleasure he knows as it really is: I am breathing out and experiencing pleasure.

  6. While breathing in and making the bodily conditions calm he knows as it really is: I am breathing in and making the bodily conditions calm, while breathing out and making the bodily conditions calm he knows as it really is: I am breathing out and making the bodily conditions calm.

https://suttacentral.net/arv20/en/anandajoti
[ARV20]
(translated by Ānandajoti Bhikkhu)

When breathing in heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing in heavily.’ When breathing out heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing out heavily.’ When breathing in lightly they know: ‘I’m breathing in lightly.’ When breathing out lightly they know: ‘I’m breathing out lightly.’ They practice breathing in experiencing the whole body. They practice breathing out experiencing the whole body. They practice breathing in stilling the body’s motion. They practice breathing out stilling the body’s motion.

https://suttacentral.net/mn62/en/sujato#13–19
[MN62]
(translated by Sujato Bhikkhu)

When he breathes in long, he knows it; and when he breathes out long, he knows that. When he breathes in short, he knows it; and when he breathes out short, he knows that. When breathing in, he trains in having the full experience of the breath; when breathing out, he trains in having the full experience of the breath. When breathing in, he trains in calming the activity of the body; when breathing out, he trains in calming the activity of the body.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pj3/en/brahmali#10–13
[PLI-TV-BU-PJ3]
(translated by Brahmali Bhikkhu)

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I see the quotes but would you say more about what you want us to see in the quotes?

For example, in MN118, did you want us to notice that kaya is mentioned early but then no longer referenced starting with the Pali segment translated as:

They practice breathing in experiencing rapture. They practice breathing out experiencing rapture.

Vitakka and vicara are not used in MN118. But the above might be an implied reference to the stilling of V&V as defined by SN40.2:

‘As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.
‘idha bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

I might be posting in the wrong thread. These passages aren’t describing jhāna. They’re just dealing with how ‘kāya’ and the ‘kāyasaṅkhāra’ in the first tetrad of ānapānasati is translated (and the strange variation of steps in ARV20).

ānapānasati is said to fulfill the satipaṭṭhāna (only the first of which is kāyanupassanā, the other three being vedanānupassana, cittānupassana, and dhammānupassā)

Yea, that’s also up for debate. I tend to think from my readings that the the pīti and sukha mentioned in ānapānasati is probably not referring to jhāna proper, but something more like training-wheels. Pīti and sukha are not exclusive to jhāna, they occur in many other places in the suttas.

MODS: my previous post might be more appropriate here: 一切 & sarva

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I believe you have confused samadhi with liberation. They aren’t the same thing. Samadhi leads in the direction of liberation, but isn’t liberation itself. People were practicing samadhi for centuries before the Buddha.

Jhana isn’t a nearly insurmountable goal that takes decades to achieve nor is it something that should be put on such a high pedestal. It typically shouldn’t also be something that only comes at the very end of the practice. That is a sad outlook and perspective.

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I don’t think people underestimate the importance of language. I think most people overemphasize the importance of language and rely on it too heavily. The obvious reason is because nearly all people have a near continual internal linguistic dialog going on in their heads and that is how people are taught to interpret and understand the world around them. External and internal language pretty much continuously. Language is vital to the transmission of the dhamma and Buddha Gotama said the ability to give instruction is miraculous and marvelous, but the rigidity of word usage was also highly dissuaded by him also.

If the Pali words are so important then why did Buddha Gotama multiple times tell the monks that they MUST teach the dhamma ONLY in the local languages of the people being taught. And as @Erika_ODonnell succinctly pointed out:

This is also true of the different languages spoken throughout Northeastern India 2,500 years ago. Conveying the meaning of a sentence doesn’t require a rigid 1:1 word exchange ratio. You can have reasonably direct analogs, but it is never exactly the same. And anyways such translation work would be mindless and produce bizzarre results, also again succinctly pointed out by @Erika_ODonnell :

This whole series of discussions is misguided in my opinion.
:anjal:

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As this topic thread has gone rather far afield, and with there being a few other topics related to the OP already in existence, I’m closing this thread.