The Role of Blissful States in Buddhist Meditation

[dayunbao]

I recently read this book The Role of Blissful States in Buddhist Meditation. In that book the author attempts to construct what meditation looked like before and after the time of the Buddha. He draws on the Vedas, Upanishads, Buddhist, and Jain texts. One of the interesting things he mentions is how the Buddha was unique (at that time) in describing blissful states as part of meditation (like piti when talking about jhana). This got me thinking about the role of blissful states in Buddhist meditation in general. If you include in the definition of “blissful” the feelings that arise from practices like the Four Brahmaviharas, then almost every formulation of meditation the Buddha taught involves blissful states (explicitly or implicitly). I know that piti and sukkha, for example, eventually give way to upekkha, but not until the 3rd jhana! I’m also aware of the dangers of chasing after or becoming attached to blissful states, but I’m wondering if we haven’t been failing to give these states proper emphasis. Thoughts?

[paul1]

Yes, the mind must have a new form of nourishment in the move from feelings of the flesh to not of the flesh otherwise it will starve:

"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that[4] — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.”—MN 14

This also shows the necessity of employing both serenity and insight. But at the beginning level nutriment can include joy in the dhamma (MN 7).

[Christopher]

I agree that these “blameless” sources of pleasure are underemphasized, underappreciated, and underdeveloped these days, especially as compared with what we find in the early discourses.

I recently undertook a little personal project to better understand what the early discourses said about samādhi and jhāna. One thing that really struck me as I read through the suttas was just how much pāmojja, pīti, and sukha were described as being integral to developing samādhi. Here are some notes that I made about this, if it’s relevant:

The early discourses frequently describe a particular causal sequence that results in samādhi. The initial step of this sequence (denoted as “x” just below) appears in many varied forms, but the rest of the sequence is remarkably consistent and proceeds like this:

x → pāmojja (gladness) → pīti (delight) → kāyopassaddhi (bodily tranquility) → sukha (pleasure) → samādhi

What are the various things that begin this causal sequence? Or, more to the point, what are the various things that cause pāmojja to arise?

1. Recollecting one’s confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha and reflecting on one’s progress in giving up the kilesas (MN 7)

2. Seeing one’s mind purified of akusala states (MN 40)

3. Saddhā: faith, confidence (SN 12.23)

4. Guarding the sense doors, resulting in the mind not being soiled (SN 35.97)

5. Abandoning the ten courses of unskillful action, pervading all directions with the brahmavihāras, and reflecting on the “safe bet” of adopting the right view of kamma (SN 42.13)

6. Diligently practicing in solitude for further progress (SN 55.40)

7. Living in harmony with one’s companions, looking on them with kindness and muditā, resulting in cetovimutti (AN 3.95)

8. Hearing, teaching, reciting, or pondering the Dhamma, resulting in inspiration in the Dhamma (AN 5.26)

9. Grasping well a cause/object (nimitta) of samādhi, resulting in inspiration in the Dhamma (AN 5.26)

10. Recollecting the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, one’s pure moral conduct, one’s generosity, or the qualities one shares with those born into heavenly realms (AN 6.10)

11. Wholesome moral conduct with resultant lack of regret (AN 10.1)

12. Seeing that the hindrances have been abandoned (DN 2)

13. Bringing to mind a gladdening or inspiring theme (SN 47.10)

A broad view of this list seems to reveal two main themes. Most of the items here fall into the category of either inspiration or purification. Rearranging the list makes this more evident:

Inspiration

1. Recollecting one’s confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha (MN 7)

2. Saddhā: faith, confidence (SN 12.23)

3. Reflecting on the “safe bet” of adopting the right view of kamma (SN 42.13)

4. Hearing, teaching, reciting, or pondering the Dhamma, resulting in inspiration in the Dhamma (AN 5.26)

5. Grasping well a cause/object (nimitta) of samādhi, resulting in inspiration in the Dhamma (AN 5.26)

6. Recollecting the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, one’s pure moral conduct, one’s generosity, or the qualities one shares with those born into heavenly realms (AN 6.10)

7. Bringing to mind a gladdening or inspiring theme (SN 47.10)

Purification

1. Reflecting on one’s progress in giving up the kilesas (MN 7)

2. Seeing one’s mind purified of akusala states (MN 40)

3. Guarding the sense doors, resulting in the mind not being soiled (SN 35.97)

4. Abandoning the ten courses of unskillful action (SN 42.13)

5. Wholesome moral conduct with resultant lack of regret (AN 10.1)

6. Seeing that the hindrances have been abandoned (DN 2)

Of the few from the main list not so easily categorized, #6 (diligently practicing in solitude for further progress) is general enough that it could be in both categories, and the ones dealing with the brahmavihāras (#7 and part of #5) could also be seen as both inspiring and purifying.

So it seems that pāmojja, in the context of samādhi, arises from the interplay of inspiration and purification. Directing the mind to inspiring themes will purify it, and the mind’s purity generates inspiration. Pāmojja naturally ensues.

[llt]

Great topic. We had some discussions about this back in 2016 that may be helpful as well (see below). The general pattern seems to be turning the mind toward some state of purity and abandoning unwholesome states. There are quite a few different practices mentioned, though, as we can also see in your list above.

Normal sequence leading to samādhi

One thing I have been looking at recently is a certain progression toward samādhi that is found throughout the āgamas and nikāyas. Especially in the SA and SN, the main meditation framework seems to be (despite its name) the Seven Factors of Bodhi. The basic starting point is mindfulness, and it leads to samādhi, and then equanimity. The Seven Factors tend to presume the Four Bases of Mindfulness, though, and a very concrete path from beginning to end. However, there are also variants of the s…

Practices leading to samādhi

Just now I discovered that this is a follow-up to Normal sequence leading to samādhi by @llt … We have a classic set of ‘meditation methods’, the satis (e.g. anapanassati, maranasati), the sannas (e.g. asubhasanna, aniccasanna), the brahmaviharas. But which practices actually lead to Samadhi? I was scanning the pali canon, choosing the term samādhiyati (a passive form, ‘samadhi-ied’). In most cases we have a stereotypical set where a practice conditions pāmojja/ pāmujja (delight), then pīti, th…

[anon72511327]

“These four kinds of indulgence in pleasure, when developed and cultivated, lead solely to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. What four?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is the first kind of indulgence in pleasure.
Furthermore, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption. It has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is the second kind of indulgence in pleasure.
Furthermore, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third absorption. They meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ This is the third kind of indulgence in pleasure.
Furthermore, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption. It is without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. This is the fourth kind of indulgence in pleasure.
These are the four kinds of indulgence in pleasure which, when developed and cultivated, lead solely to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment.
It’s possible that wanderers who follow other paths might say, ‘The ascetics who follow the Sakyan live indulging in pleasure in these four ways.’ They should be told, ‘Exactly so!’ It’s right to say that about you; it doesn’t misrepresent you with an untruth.
It’s possible that wanderers who follow other paths might say, ‘How many fruits and benefits may be expected by those who live indulging in pleasure in these four ways?’ You should say to them, ‘Four benefits may be expected by those who live indulging in pleasure in these four ways. What four?
Firstly, with the ending of three fetters a mendicant becomes a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening. This is the first fruit and benefit.
Furthermore, a mendicant—with the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion—becomes a once-returner. They come back to this world once only, then make an end of suffering. This is the second fruit and benefit.
Furthermore, with the ending of the five lower fetters, a mendicant is reborn spontaneously and will become extinguished there, not liable to return from that world. This is the third fruit and benefit.
Furthermore, a mendicant realizes the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life, and lives having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements. This is the fourth fruit and benefit.
These four benefits may be expected by those who live indulging in pleasure in these four ways.”

DN 29

[Akaliko]

@Christopher

I agree that these “blameless” sources of pleasure are underemphasized, underappreciated, and underdeveloped these days, especially as compared with what we find in the early discourses.

I agree! It’s such a shame. These instructions are always so clear, and in many cases (like the anussatis) are already familiar, so they make a good foundation. I find caganussati and silanussati very practical, and it’s easy to develop the subsequent states of meditation.

@Christopher

I recently undertook a little personal project to better understand what the early discourses said about samādhi and jhāna.

A wonderful project, thank you for sharing! May your dhammadana inspire joy in your heart… etc etc etc!

[Gillian]

I happened to watch this last night. The way Bhikkhu Bodhi sets up his talk makes it very clear that he agrees that blissful states are the foundation from which to build samadhi.

Finding Joy in the Wholesome with Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi

If you don’t want to listen to the whole talk, having set up the progression of blissful states, he goes on to advise his lay audience that the best was to start developing pāmojja is by

1. practicing Buddhanussati regularly to increase saddhā/faith
2. keeping sīla and rejoicing that one’s training is developing
3. practicing cāga/generosity and delighting in this
4. developing mudita to rejoice in the good qualities and good deeds of others

[Akaliko]

One further thought from a slightly different angle; I remember reading once in a (now forgotten) commentary that if one wants to cultivate pamuojja and pīti then one should avoid “coarse people” and associate with refined types.

That may sound rather snobbish, and I’d leave others to define “coarse”… but even though we may wish it wasn’t so, there is some truth that others speech and behaviour can have an impact on our mental states (take a ride on public transport!). And so this advice has stuck in my head even though I can’t remember the source.

[sabbamitta]

@Akaliko

That may sound rather snobbish, and I’d leave others to define “coarse”…

Another way of addressing this can be to focus on the rather refined qualities in one and the same person and leave their coarser qualities to one side. As for example explained by Sāriputta in AN 5.162:

AN5.162:5.1: How should you get rid of resentment for a person whose behavior by way of body and speech is impure, but who gets an openness and clarity of heart from time to time? Suppose there was a little water in a cow’s hoofprint. Then along comes a person struggling in the oppressive heat, weary, thirsty, and parched. They might think: ‘This little bit of water is in a cow’s hoofprint. If I drink it with my cupped hands or a bowl, I’ll stir it and disturb it, making it undrinkable. Why don’t I get down on all fours and drink it up like a cow, then be on my way?’ So that’s what they do. In the same way, at that time you should ignore that person’s impure behavior by way of speech and body, and focus on the fact that they get an openness and clarity of heart from time to time. That’s how to get rid of resentment for that person.

As the simile suggests, getting down on all fours in order to get to reach that person’s good qualities isn’t snobbish at all. It rather proves of a great humility, considering that person as an equal human being who is worth all possible effort that helps discover their good qualities. Simply thinking of this simile can make you feel glad … while thinking “this is a coarse person”—which admittedly does happen to me in real life—makes me feel hard and rather a bit darkish.

[Akaliko]

The Buddha also said not to associate with fools!

And in the previous Sutta AN5.161 to “ignore” people one has resentment towards. Different practices for different contexts and knowing the limits of our abilities in that moment.

[Gabi73]

I think our contemporary idea of “kindness” and “humility” is different from the time of the Buddha.

The idea that avoiding the company of others is “rude” towards the person or group we are avoiding is a very (recent) western idea.

As long as we do not impose restrictions to those we want to distant ourself but at the same time we maintain equanimity towards them we respect, I think, the Buddhist teaching.

Equanimity is indeed part of the brahma viharas and I think exactly for that reason otherwise we would be forced to have only love and kindness and compassion which cannot cover by themselves all the context in which we may find ourselves.

We can avoid association with the “fouls” and people that may trouble our mind and at the same time remain very equanimous towards them.

At the end, the fact that we distance ourself from them has nothing to do with them per-se, but rather it is a result of our state of mind and our capacities to deal with the situation or people. This is so since all our experience can only be the experiences of our perceptions and mind!

[Thito]

@dayunbao

I’m also aware of the dangers of chasing after or becoming attached to blissful states, but I’m wondering if we haven’t been failing to give these states proper emphasis. Thoughts?

On the contrary, the Buddha says it’s not until people have gotten these blissful states and are competent in attaining them, that it leads to giving up sensual desires. These blissful states are required. Furthermore, appamanacitta (measureless mind) is the ultimate form of sense restraint, and it’s what the monks in the suttas attain after the daily meal. So it’s these blissful states that prevent monks from falling into sensual pleasures. It’s escaping from mara. I would say that once one has attained Right View, their goal is then to overcome the 5 hindrances and attain first jhana in order to attain the fruit of stream entry.

[Thito]

I did this project a few years ago too, I called it “Pamojja Triggers”. The main thing to understand is that the 5 hindrances need to be overcome, that is the ultimate and main pamojja trigger. For the 5 hindrances to be overcome, one need sati-sampajanna, and for that to happen one needs proper attention and right view. If there is no Right View (Sati), Proper Attention and Sati-Sampajanna one cannot arrive at pamojja.

• Proper Attention means knowing that when A arises, B arises, and when A cease, B ceases. It’s the awareness of causality and conditionality, specifically in the mind.
• Sati means knowing the dhamma (5 hindrances, 5 aggregates, 7 factors of awakening, 4 noble truths, and especially what is wholesome and unwholesome)
• Sampajanna means knowing objects as they arise, persist, and pass
• Therefore Sati-Sampajanna means knowing when dhammas (5 hindrances, 5 aggregates, 7 awakening factors, and 4 noble truth) arise, persist, and pass. One is aware when unwholesome qualities have arisen and cuts them off before they turn into craving and therefore stress.

E.g.

“This is Nanda’s mindfulness and clear comprehension: Nanda knows feelings as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear; he knows perceptions as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear; he knows thoughts as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear. That is Nanda’s mindfulness and clear comprehension.

• AN 8.9

and dispelling any unwholesome quality

“But if while walking … standing … sitting … lying down a sensual thought or a thought of ill will or an aggressive thought arises in a bhikkhu and he does not tolerate it, but rejects it, dispels it, gets rid of it, and brings it to an end, that bhikkhu—who in such a manner is ardent and afraid of wrongdoing—is called constantly energetic and resolute.”

• iti 110

In short, if you have Sati-Sampajanna 24/7, then you fulfill the second factor of the noble eightfold path which is Right Thought, and therefore you overcome the 5 hindrances and meet the first requirement for first jhana: secluded from unwholesome mental qualities.

This also fulfills the second factor of awakening, dhammavicaya - investigating the dhamma:

"[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development.

• Anapanasati sutta

Therefore having Sati-Sampajanna fulfilled also fulfills the second factor of awakening, overcomes the 5 hindrances, and meets the first requirement for first jhana, and when one then goes to a secluded setting, which is the second requirement for first jhana, pamojja will come out in full force.

[Christopher]

@Thito

On the contrary, the Buddha says it’s not until people have gotten these blissful states and are competent in attaining them, that it leads to giving up sensual desires. These blissful states are required.

I agree with you. The early discourses seem to indicate that these states are necessary for attaining non-return.

@Thito

I would say that once one has attained Right View, their goal is then to overcome the 5 hindrances and attain first jhana in order to attain the fruit of stream entry.

It seems much less likely to me that these states are required for stream entry, as we see many people in the discourses attaining stream entry who are unlikely to have developed meditative bliss.

@Thito

So it’s these blissful states that prevent monks from falling into sensual pleasures. It’s escaping from mara.

I agree that these states certainly seem to weaken sensual desire, but at least one sutta makes clear that this is not a sure thing. AN 6.60 is interesting because it describes how someone can have attained the four jhānas and even the signless samādhi and, due to conceit, can then have lust invade their mind and fall away from the training.

[Christopher]

@Thito

I did this project a few years ago too, I called it “Pamojja Triggers”.

Very nice! The pāmojja sequence was just a part of my project, which was to understand how samādhi and, more specifically, jhāna were described in the early discourses. Because there are so many debates about this topic, I just wanted to try to set aside any preconceived notions and see what the texts say for myself.

A good friend suggested that if I wanted to do it right I should read every sutta systematically. So I did this for the four main nikāyas and the Snp, as well as reading any available parallels that had been translated into English. I took notes on any mentions of sāmadhi or jhāna (or their synonyms). Then I went through each note and figured out what questions that piece of data answered. Those questions became my categories for sorting the notes. This probably wasn’t the most efficient way to go about it, but I had plenty of time and it seemed pretty thorough.

I started to create a document summarizing the information in each category (answering each question), which is what my above post is taken from. I’ve gotten about halfway through, but, since it’s just for me and not urgent that I compose these coherent summaries, I’ve put it aside for now.

[Thito]

It seems much less likely to me that these states are required for stream entry, as we see many people in the discourses attaining stream entry who are unlikely to have developed meditative bliss.

In the suttas, anyone who has attained the fruit of stream entry (the dhamma chakkhu) also overcomes the 5 hindrances, and as far as I know, there is nothing in the suttas that indicate a state in between overcomeing the 5 hindrances and first jhana. That is to say, when you overcome the 5 hindrances, you are in first jhana. There is no “access concentration” in the suttas that I am aware of.

Also the suttas say that a stream winner has “moderate concentration”, this could imply either two things:

• Jhanas 1 to 4 but no mastery, i.e. they cannot attain them “at will”
• First jhana

[Christopher]

@Thito

That is to say, when you overcome the 5 hindrances, you are in first jhana

This seems to be the crux of it. If I understand you correctly, you are saying:

When there are no hindrances in the mind, this is first jhāna.
Someone attaining stream entry has no hindrances in the mind at that moment.
Hence, jhāna is required for stream entry.

I agree with the second statement, but I don’t agree with the first one (or the third). It’s true that the discourses make clear that overcoming the hindrances is necessary for entering first jhāna. But I can’t recall a discourse that says that this alone is sufficient for first jhāna. Even the standard description of the first jhāna includes pīti and sukha, as we’ve been discussing in this thread (shameless tie-in to the OP to avoid being perceived as off-topic ) And there are several discourses that go beyond the standard description to list factors of the first jhāna other than being free from hindrances. For example:

• pītisukha from seclusion that pervades the entire body: MN 4, MN 39, DN 2, et.al.
• complete calming of bodily disquiet (kāyaduṭṭhullānaṃ): MN 64
• ekaggatā (undistractedness, unscatteredness): MN 43
• speech has ceased: SN 36.11

I think the freedom from the hindrances has to be accompanied by a very focused mental state (ekaggatā) and the pervasion of pītisukha through one’s entire physical and mental experience for it to meet the description of the first jhāna as described in the early discourses.

@Thito

Also the suttas say that a stream winner has “moderate concentration”, this could imply either two things:

• Jhanas 1 to 4 but no mastery, i.e. they cannot attain them “at will”
• First jhana

The sense that I have is that the early discourses don’t equate samādhi with jhāna. In other words, samādhi is a broad term that denotes a general mental quality, and jhāna is a type of samādhi. All jhāna is samādhi, but not all samādhi is jhāna. The teaching you’re referencing here, in suttas like AN 3.87, just refers to samādhi being moderately developed. It doesn’t refer to jhāna specifically.

[Thito]

Samma Samadhi is defined as the four jhanas. However there are more suttas that show that Samma Samadhi is required for attaining stream entry, even for just a finger snap, as long as it leads to the necessary insight. The more one has accomplished the longer they can suppress the 5 hindrances and stay in jhanas.

Here are suttas that show that the attainment of stream entry fruit is associated with jhana attainment.

Principles only become clear when one is in samadhi (referring to Samma Samadhi):

When you live with the eye faculty restrained, your mind doesn’t become polluted when it comes to sights known by the eye. When the mind isn’t polluted, joy springs up. Being joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, one feels bliss. And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi. When the mind is immersed in samādhi, principles become clear. Because principles have become clear, you’re considered to live diligently.

• SN 35.97

One who has the fruit of stream entry is able to attain tranquility:

‘When I develop, cultivate, and make much of this view, I personally gain serenity and quenching.’

• MN 48

It’s impossible to give up the fetters without Samma Samadhi:

“Mendicants, it’s totally impossible that a mendicant who enjoys company and groups, who loves them and likes to enjoy them, should take pleasure in being alone in seclusion. Without taking pleasure in being alone in seclusion, it’s impossible to learn the patterns of the mind. Without learning the patterns of the mind, it’s impossible to fulfill right view. Without fulfilling right view, it’s impossible to fulfill right immersion. Without fulfilling right immersion, it’s impossible to give up the fetters. Without giving up the fetters, it’s impossible to realize extinguishment.

• AN 6.68

The condition for knowing and seeing is Samma Samadhi:

Rebirth is a vital condition for suffering. Suffering is a vital condition for faith. Faith is a vital condition for joy. Joy is a vital condition for rapture. Rapture is a vital condition for tranquility. Tranquility is a vital condition for bliss. Bliss is a vital condition for immersion. Immersion is a vital condition for truly knowing and seeing.

• SN 12.23

Someone who has attained the fruit of stream entry knows and sees, they are beyond theoretical knowledge:

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
“One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.”

• SN 25.7

A stream winner who is negligent only lacks seclusion as the condition for jhana. Since they have experiential confidence (i.e. they’ve seen the dhamma), they attained jhanas, at least for a moment of a finger snap. Therefore their training is to attain jhanas again and again and learn to suppress and starve the 5 hindrances longer and longer.

Furthermore, a noble disciple has experiential confidence in the teaching … the Saṅgha … And they have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to immersion. They’re content with that ethical conduct loved by the noble ones, and don’t make a further effort for solitude by day or retreat by night. When they live negligently, there’s no joy. When there’s no joy, there’s no rapture. When there’s no rapture, there’s no tranquility. When there’s no tranquility, there’s suffering. When one is suffering, the mind does not become immersed in samādhi. When the mind is not immersed in samādhi, principles do not become clear. Because principles have not become clear, they’re reckoned to live negligently. That’s how a noble disciple lives negligently.

• SN 55.40

Ekaggata is attained before the first 3 fetters are given up. It’s paying attention to the sign of non-distraction (abyagganimitta) that results in Ekaggata.

Without giving up three things you can’t give up identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances. What three? Improper attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness. Without giving up these three things you can’t give up identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.

Without giving up three things you can’t give up improper attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness. What three? Unmindfulness, lack of situational awareness, and distracted mind. Without giving up these three things you can’t give up improper attention, following a wrong path, and mental sluggishness.

• AN 10.76

A stream winner has moderate concentration:

"There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because I have not declared that to be a disqualification in these circumstances. But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, he is one of permanent virtue, one of steadfast virtue. Having undertaken them, he trains in reference to the training rules. With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, never again destined for states of woe, certain, headed for self-awakening.

• AN 3.85

Moderate concentration refers to the jhanas:

"And what is the training in heightened mind? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful [mental] qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.’ With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called the training in heightened mind.

• AN 3.88

Therefore it’s safe to assume that the stream entry may even require attaining all seven factors of awakening, including equanimity, which is the fourth jhana, as there is a sutta that says that the more one executes the noble eightfold path, the more one attains. So we can assume that the fruit of stream entry is attained when one executes the entire noble eightfold path for the first time. A non-returner is able to attain jhanas “at will” so they can easily overcome the 5 hindrances, the only issue they have to deal with is sloth and restlessness, whereas it’s harder for a sotapanna to execute the entire path and overcome the 5 hindrances, because they have more hindrances to deal with.

[Christopher]

Thanks for laying out your reasoning and for the sutta references. I think where we differ is that you seem to equate samādhi with jhāna, while I see it as a broader term that can refer to states other than jhāna. AN 4.41, for example, describes four developments of samādhi, only one of which is jhāna.

@Thito

Samma Samadhi is defined as the four jhanas.

Until recently, I shared this view. But Venerable Anālayo has pointed out that defining them this way appears in only four discourses of the Pāli Canon (DN 22, MN 141, SN 45.8, and AN 5.28). I had assumed that this definition was much more frequent than it is. Plus, the majority of these discourses lack parallels, which weakens the assertion that early Buddhism defined sammā samādhi exclusively as the four jhānas.

Several discourses (DN 18, MN 117, SN 45.28, and AN 7.42) instead define sammā samādhi as unification of mind (cittassa ekaggatā) integrated with the other seven aspects of the eightfold path, with no mention of jhāna. However, two of these discourses lack parallels, making it more difficult to be certain that this definition is what the Buddha meant by “right samādhi”.

I think we might be going off track from the OP though…

[Thito]

@Christopher

I think where we differ is that you seem to equate samādhi with jhāna, while I see it as a broader term that can refer to states other than jhāna. AN 4.41

That’s usually due to a poor translation. For example you would agree that Abhinna is not Jhana, but a product of jhanas correct?

Here in AN 4.41 this is referring to Abhinna, which is not a jhana.

And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision? It’s when a mendicant focuses on the perception of light, concentrating on the perception of day, regardless of whether it’s night or day. And so, with an open and unenveloped heart, they develop a mind that’s full of radiance. This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision.

This for example is not Samadhi, but insight:

And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements? It’s when a mendicant meditates observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates. ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form. Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling. Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception. Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices. Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’ This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements.

Therefore, AN 4.41 is explaining Samadhi (jhanas) and the results of Samadhi, which is Abhinna, Insight, etc…

Samma Samadhi has always meant the four jhanas, and that’s what the Buddha praises and warns you to not neglect in several suttas.

The Buddha praised the jhanas:

“And what kind of meditation did the Blessed One praise? Here, brahmin, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna…With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, he enters upon and abides in the second jhāna…With the fading away as well of rapture…he enters upon and abides in the third jhāna…With the abandoning of pleasure and pain…he enters upon and abides in the fourth jhāna…The Blessed One praised that kind of meditation.”

Jhanas are the footprints of the Tathagatha:

“Again, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. This too, brahmin, is called a footprint of the Tathāgata

And in fact, if you don’t attain jhanas, you are not dwelling in the dhamma.

"Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He doesn’t spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn’t neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.

“Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don’t be heedless. Don’t later fall into regret. This is our message to you.”

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.073.than.html

It is without a doubt, that jhanas are required for executing the noble eightfold path, and what the Buddha refers to as Samma Samadhi.

Anyway, there are a lot more suttas that back this up, but as you said, best to not derail the thread.