I’m not sure I’m getting it, sorry. So first the translation of the key phrases to spanish, and them, take a long sutta, and use the key phrases in it to set the order in which the Tipitaka is translated? Like take one of the key phrases and translate all the suttas connected to the long one with that key phrase in it?
Yes. Let’s use MN44 as an example.
- Karl creates a draft ES glossary from the PT glossary.
- Karl uses EBT-DeepL to produce MN44/ES with that glossary
- @Hugo and @Marajina review the MN44/ES pre-translation
- Once this coarse review is complete, MN44/ES can be imported into Bilara
- @Hugo and @Marajina finalize any edits that EBT-DeepL cannot handle via glossary.
- @Huga and @Marajina publish MN44/ES on SuttaCentral.
Team proceeds to related AN/SN suttas translating each in turn with the same process, revising the ES glossary as needed.
Sounds good, but it’s too much for me, I think. It requires a commitment that I can’t take on right now. I just like to translate a sutta from time to time as it comes across my practice.
However, maybe I can help you with the glossary. It seems like a more approachable task for me.
I will take some time and get us started…stay tuned!
@Hugo, @Marajina, we now have two Spanish narrators (Enrique, Lucia) for you to review and hear mn44/es/ebt-deepl. Although AWS provides 10 voices, not all are suitable or cheap. I found the Spain narrators to have the clearest enunciation with crisp deliveries–even though all my years of studying Spanish were in the Americas. The Mexican and ES-US narrators were a little too much like the old TI Speak and Spell in their rough delivery. Buddhism is an oral tradition, so I think it quite important to listen to the suttas even while we read them in any language.
This translation was built using the draft glossary ebt_en_es_ebt-deepl.kvg. I generated the draft glossary from the PT glossary, since similar issues arose there with MN44. As you can see from the glossary, there are a lot of terms to think about defining precisely in Spanish. They need to be defined precisely because their translation must integrate well with the translation of other related terms. For example, we have “stream-enterer”, which DeepL would translate as “entrante en el arroyo”. Looking at Gabriel’s PT translation, I decided to use his choice “corriente” instead of the more literal “arroyo”, because “stream” here is more abstract and ambiguous in that it can be understood as “something that moves, sweeps or impels towards a goal”. I have also seen DeepL translate stream as “fluxo” (flujo?).
It might be helpful to read/hear MN44 in context as you review the glossary. In PT, I noticed that “bhikkhu” sounds like “bico”, which means “beak or nipple”. I found that unacceptable for listening so I simply used “monje/a” even though Bhante Sujato prefers “mendicant”.
Another consideration is attention to the repetitive terms such as “So I have heard”. Now in PT, that comes across quite well as “Assim ouvi”, which can be spoken out to an assembly in a profound and resonant manner. In Spanish, I’m not sure what we should use and neither does DeepL. Although not semantically critical to the Dhamma, these terms are important as they clear the mind, allowing it to focus mindfully on what follows.
These are examples of considerations that a glossary can help solve. Let’s take a pass through the glossary and then I’ll re-translate as many times as necessary or possible. I look forward to your guidance on editing the glossary.
I have checked it and have sent a pull request (hope I have done it right) with a few grammar and ortography details.
I can’t find most of the entries in MN44 by the way.
I use ‘bhikkhu’ and ‘bhikkhuni’ without translation because I don’t like the word ‘monje,’ and ‘mendicante’ is a term that I have never heard in Spain referring to an individual; usually, it’s used for a group like ‘tradición mendicante.’ For individuals, we use ‘mendigo,’ but it has some connotations in spanish that I think don’t fit. For plural I just add ‘s’.
For the process of working with the glossary, do you think it is better to use GitHub to discuss the terms via pull requests or something similar (I’m not an expert, there may be other ways)? Using this thread for everything related to Spanish translations is going to be a nightmare when trying to check something in the future.
While reading on DW the other day, I came across the case for maintaining Pali fluency as a way to communicate across languages. In the translation work that is currently my focus, I’m keeping source words, like Sotapanna, when the target is cumbersome. Mostly, my work will be spoken so these explanations can be given as a matter of course but in writing, footnotes will be employed.
This is so cool! Grateful to be included here . The Spanish voice is fine. But just to mention: “Señora” for “Ayye”? Having experienced cultural insensitivity toward women, even in monastic culture, I advocate keeping source words like Ayya and Ayye as well, since these have no history in the target culture. Hence a call for consideration around female/feminine monastic culture, references and Arahantas () even when the setting and context imply a respectful address. In English-speaking Theravada culture we use “Ayya” and “Ayye” instead of Madam, ma’am, or Dame - our filters can pick up how these words have been twisted (“nunnery” also). Respectfully…
I didn’t see this when it was posted. I’m very happy and willing to help but the timeline (urgency) is a consideration. I’m preparing for a Dhamma teaching trip which brought me to this subject of existing Spanish translations. I may -or may not - be traveling with more frequency but while able to access Internet, yes on helping how I’m able. Will finish MN44 as the day continues.
I agree with everything you say, @marajina. I have always had doubts about how to use Pali, mainly because of the cases and special characters. I’m sure you already have a pretty clear idea of how to handle it, right?
I think we should first focus on creating a good enough glossary draft. Reviewing such a long sutta with a poor pre-translation is very difficult and time-consuming. I’m starting to translate it from scratch, but at my pace, it can take me years.
Is there a full list of entries for the glossary already @karl_lew ?
Yes. I’m not familiar with these programs. Created an account that is yet to be used so a slow pace here as well.
This works well and the changes are very helpful. The accents are especially painful for me to get right since I literally cannot see them with my bad eyes. If you would prefer to edit the glossary directly in ebt-deepl, I would just need your Github username. Pull requests are also fine.
Much of the glossary arose from correlating DeepL/PT to Gabriel’s existing suttas. Gabriel hasn’t translated MN44 yet, so I needed to train DeepL/PT on other material.
I like to use Github comments to keep track of changes for historical reference. Comments are merged along with pull requests for all to see. A Github comment helps track change.
For example commit request 742a0c8f has a very helpful change “normal no instruida” that is much more palatable than the previous phrase (thank you!). So I would comment that commit with the actual change (i.e., “normal no instruida”) for future reference. Other changes such as typos I typically just put in a short comment “typo” if there is nothing but typos. This permits rapid scanning of changes. When I code, I try to separate consequential change (bug fix) from inconsequential change (typos). In other words, before making a significant change, I check in my existing changes as “comments, typos” and follow that with a brand new commit with the consequential change (e.g., “normal no instruida”).
In contrast, D&D is best for extended discussion. for example, I’m curious about the suitability (or insuitability) of “monj-” for Bhikkhu—". As an American the notion of a Buddhist monk/nun seems uncontroversial, but that is because of ignorance which is easily cured by learning here. If a topic has the potential for extensive discussion, then a separate private thread can be very helpful, especially since that would be kind to the D&D moderators and decrease their burden. Although this is a public thread, I think we’ll eventually switch to private threads–the value of this thread as public is that there are many interested in Spanish translations.
Pali is foundational. It is also very hard to learn properly–I would simply go ask a Venerable for deeper meaning. What Bhante Sujato’s translations do is provide me something tangible to “hang a concept on.” For lay people like me, that is important. Bhante’s translation are accessible to many.
One very surprising thing about the Teachings is that they are so powerful that they change the meanings of words. I have seen this happen to me time-and-again. I am a native speaker of English and yet reading the Dhamma has changed the meanings of English words in my head. This is a constant surprise for me as my own native English vocabulary has morphed to become “Dhamma consistent” thanks to Bhante’s use of contemporary language. Trying to understand “identity view” gave me a headache until I read enough Dhamma to change my brain. And when Bhante changed that to “substantialist view” I had to learn a new word ( ) but now I’m totally fine. with that.
Because Pali is so foundational and important. SuttaCentral Voice speaks and shows Pali. So when I read PT suttas, I have both Pali and PT narrators for all segments. The foundation is preserved in a contemporary PT context.
If you and @Hugo are in agreement, we can change the glossary to Sotapanna. I personally prefer a contemporary phrase for the reasons above, but by now I know what Sotapanna means and it wouldn’t be a problem for me.
NOTE: we can also have separate glossaries for separate Bilara translations, but for simplicity I hope we can build a common EN_ES glossary first.
Thank you for mentioning that. I’ve added Ma’am | Ayyeto the glossary and learned just now that Ayye is preferred in direct address.
My own focus is on reading PT suttas–it’s fun and I’m learning stuff. I am very much a slow person according to my wife, so my only worry is actually not being able to keep up with you both. My hope is that the ES work will be interesting and engaging for you both. I myself look forward to reconnecting with a life from 50 years ago.
Actually no. What you see is what I have from translating MN44/PT.
BTW, if MN44 is too big to review, we could also just look an sn41.6, which deals with “three processes” as mentioned in MN44. In fact, SN41.6 is the definitional sutta for “three processes” where MN44 is the “overview sutta” for “three processes”.