Use of drugs for meditation

Yeah, that’s one way to put it. But I’m not so sure one has to calm the mind, because the nature of the mind is to be active, so if one’s try to calm it, it strikes back and becomes more agitated. But I guess we both speak about the same thing, and it’s just differences in semantics.

There are so many researches gone and going on, and some of them can bring greater clarity and some might delude us if we take them to be the truth. A researcher takes on a small bit of reality, breaks it into parts, measures and classifies them - see how they work together, and then draw conclusions. But if the conclusion is a form of proof of how the whole is or isn’t, then it most surely is the wrong conclusion.

There are chemicals that are toxic to our bodies, and there are external substances/chemicals that aren’t, and those I like to talk about is also found in our body and is produced by our bodies, and those can’t be said to be external. But of course, if one adds too much, it can be harmful, - one can die of drinking too much water.

Refrain from taking substances that cloud the mind, but it doesn’t say don’t take substances that make the mind brighter. We give our monastics chocolate because it’s considered a medicine. Chocolate also strengthens our endocannabinoid system, the body’s own “cannabis system” if you like.

Who knows? I think it’s you who have a problem making my ideas fit with your understanding of Buddha’s teachings. There are all of these consciousnesses arising in knowing and knowing doesn’t arise or cease, or at least my knowing behaves like that. And if it wasn’t so, how could one escape this mess? Could one sankhara know another sankhara, - one thought knowing another thought, or one feeling feel another feeling?

1 Like

Like SeanOakes I understand the precept to be about heedlessness, and the unwholesome results of that heedlessness. I do not understand it to be about clarity of mind, because the mind is of the nature to be clouded. Greed, ill-will and delusion cloud the mind by the same chemical pathways as drugs and indeed all other substances, names and forms do.

2 Likes

Calming is done with meditation practices like the breath because an agitated mind cannot understand the mind (i.e., develop wisdom such as see the three characteristics, etc.) – but I agree that this is probably a ‘semantics’ issue.
Also, knowing that research has shown that mind states are bringing changes in the brain (in reversible ways) is useful – as I see it. Anyway, I do not want to fight about this.
Also, all conscious states arise and cease and are causally conditioned – and this applies to awareness too (the volition aggregate). See the dhammapada verses: 277 – 279.

I would hold that it is more virtuous to criticise arguments, theories and practices rather than people and traditions to avoid ad-hominem fallacies and sectarianism. Apart from having read a few of his books, some of which were good and some were less, I don’t know the mind of Jack Kornfield and I think it’s best to avoid judging it unless we can claim clairvoyance.

Furthermore, I have practiced tantra for twenty years, of which 16 as a monastic and have never come across the use of drugs in these practices, apart from Hindu practitioners. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist amongst lay practitioners, but at least that it is rare enough for me never to have heard of it. Moreover tantra requires calm abiding which is impossible to obtain through the use of hallucinants. And finally, most Tibetan monastics are as strict in their vows as other traditions, apart from cultural and environmental adaptations like eating after midday and the use of money, and which definitely excludes the use of stimulants, even if they’re tantric practitioners.

I think we all agree that in general the use of drugs in meditation practice is a bad idea, for it fosters disturbance and delusion and not calm and insight.

10 Likes

Thanks for reminding me about Ad Hominems, and I agree they aren’t cool. :grinning: Thanks, Brother.

1 Like
The framing was almost Ghandi-level calm considering. My response is collapsed as it's off topic, but I feel I need to say something.

My issue is not with your stance on drugs, but rather with on your apparent stance regarding mental health issues.

When I read this line…

…it sounds like you have an assumption that one too many parties is the most likely cause of schizophrenia. If you have time, I invite you to read the Wiki page regarding this, in particular the section on risk factors. Notably, we see a 70 - 80% hereditary factor with a wide range of epigenetics including prenatal development, adverse childhood experiences and social isolation. While it says those who have schizophrenia are more likely to use substances, the degree to which it contributes to a cause is less clear. Elsewhere it states “The relationship between schizophrenia and substance use is quite complex.”

Were someone following community guidelines, they would not speak of their personal issues - however statistically, we could assume there are members who are affected by mental health issues. Perhaps some of these people have felt completely alienated from society (including their own families) for decades, have tried all the things a reasonable person would try, and some that a reasonable person would not - all to no avail. Perhaps in 2021 they had literally just one spoken conversation of duration greater than one minute (that being with their hairdresser back in June covering such topics as ‘hows the water?’). We’re still blue-skying here - maybe they’ve spent their entire adult life feeling like they can interact with the people around them about as much as with those on t.v. (Unlike your video game thread, they cannot leap inside the tv). Now let’s imagine that they discover Buddhism which offers a genuinely new p.o.v, it sounds great in theory until they come across a robe-wearing representative of this organization saying…

I imagine that could sound very much to them like “It doesn’t matter whether you want to fit in, or even if you try really hard - you’re simply not acceptable, nor will you ever be.” While they’re staggering from that they read…

ngvitor gets it, the attitude’s can be:

^^ May sound familiar to B. Akaliko ^^

To my ear, you stop just short of saying “loonies keep out”. (double entendre there for the Cannucks).

Trust, of course, is a two way street.


I was hurt by your posts is the point I’m trying to convey.

2 Likes

Having watched some documentaries recently on this subject which is becoming quite popular nowadays, I have come to realize that psychedelics are central to the religious practices of many indigenous traditions and so diserve respect.

I am personally not inclined in taking such substances but have seen that according to some experts like Professor David Nutt from Imperial college they are extremely low risk. @Invo mentions Stan Grof and I read that he developed holotropic breathwork; which apparently can produce similar states just by controlled breathing. I was curious whether anyone has investigated this further (apparently you have to attend a workshop to learn) and whether perhaps this bears some similarities to the techniques of yogis from some Indian traditions?

I’m open minded to the possibilities of psychedelics, but I am not convinced their usage is low risk. I am hopeful that liberal attitudes towards letting scientists study them thoroughly will change that.

As far as unbinding of consciousness goes, achieving the deathless, I doubt their efficacy.

Ancient India likely had it’s share of drugs. The Sutta Pitaka describes many people trying many extreme things for the sake of spirituality. Either a shortcut via drugs wasn’t found by those people or information about it wasn’t recorded.

In contemporary times I have met and known a number of people who experimented with psychedelics. They don’t seem to have achieved anything out of the ordinary and they don’t seem to be living life the better than the rest of us. To be fair, you can say the same thing about Buddhists, particularly in loosely moderated Buddhist internet forums. No disrespect to anyone. Happy Wednesday.

2 Likes

Definitely. Unlike you I don’t personally know anyone who took these substances so my Reflections are based only on reading scientific papers. There seems to be a lot of good work carried out for example you can look up a Bill Richards from Johns Hopkins who is definitely a good human being and who has helped a lot of people with end of life anxiety. It all depends on who does it and for example I think it would be disrespectful to just dismiss the shamanic traditions of many indigenous people who use these substances in spite of the persecutions of the Catholic church in places like Latin America that drove them to do it in hiding.

2 Likes

I’ve done a lot of holotropic breastwork, and its very powerful. But there are also nomerous other breathing techniques that is covered by this concept today.
Imo, Buddhists are a boring lot, do as others tell them to do, never trust the inner Buddha before someone special says: Now your allowed :pray:

1 Like

Interesting. Did you have to attend workshops or could you learn on your own? I mean for example I heard a podcast where they speak of a breather and someone looking after them when they do it so it seems to be done in groups, right? I any case If you get States similar to those induced by psychedelics it’s very powerful because for example I read in a book by Bill Richards (Sacred knowledge) a description by Walter Pahnke of his own experience that sounded like nimittas and Jhanas.
I was wondering whether holotropic breathwork is in any way related to meditation but as far as I understand there is not much relationships in sofar as apparently in halotropic work the emphasis is on controlling the breath whereas in Anapanasati you just watch it and you don’t control it at all.

This is precisely where I think an experience with psychedelics can be useful. People don’t necessarily read the suttas and think, oh it says reality isn’t as it seems, I agree, and follow the path. Sometimes having this externally induced experience is what helps bring a certain amount of faith in the path and seek a more genuine and lasting approach like meditation—but they needed that external source first.

I agree with the dangers you bring up with confusing that with the Truth. But I do believe the glimpses into the truth that these drugs sometimes provide, can help helpful in starting someone on a spiritual journey.

And more power to them if it set them on a spiritual path that worked for them. I have a close friend who is a very serious catholic practitioner following such a trip. And similarly I have friends who came to buddhism that way.

2 Likes

Yes my but what I am wondering is: since the experts in this field say that you can get the same States or similar ones in a session of holotropic breathwork why don’t people just teach and practice the latter more widely, which doesn’t carry any complications, risks, legal issues in many places etc

Because meditation is not that accessible and easy to begin. Because developing the mindfulness required to get such experiences is work. And because sometimes you need to have faith/interest to try meditation in the first place.

And because it isn’t illegal everywhere. And also some religions do use psychedelics in this way. And in my belief in religious tolerance, that means respecting their use in those contexts and seeing that to some, it has value for spiritual development. Though, as I said, I agree with Venerable there are dangers.

I am not talking if meditation. I was referring to Stan Grof’s holotropic breathwork.
And concerning the traditions who use Psychedelics for spiritual practices I wrote (twice) that they are worthy of respect

1 Like

Did you mean breathwork?

1 Like

After many years of listening to people praise the use of psychedelics and other drugs for Dhamma development, I still find support of their usage for those purposes puzzling. While I don’t disagree that a person intent on having a peaceful and fulfilling human existence can benefit immensely from spiritual practices that include these substances, the Dhamma is no such system, so the collaboration would only contribute to the peaceful maintenance of the discrepancy of Being and the associated suffering. The introduction of these substances to the living body is an attempt to alter how one feels and perceives the various content of their experience up to an including the very existence itself, but since Dhamma is intent on uprooting that vey basis, no alteration could suffice.

What I mean is, the content of one’s Being was never the problem, but it is that Being is not understood as impossible to be there to begin with. Practice of the Dhamma gradually brings the proliferation of experience (that is pressed out into the content) together into a place that does not misinterpret the meaning of what is there. This begins with generosity and virtue, and carries all the way through to an understanding that it was always the craving that kept the view in the wrong order. Once that is understood and the craving is dried up - as we often read the arahants proclaim - it cannot return. So, even though psychedelics can bring a warming comfort to experience, it does not last since that condition depends on a togetherness of something that cannot remain together, and furthermore, it is the mistaken ownership of that Being - whether comfortable or not - that the Dhamma intends to uproot.

To practice with an enhancement of a sense faculty is to practice an embrace of suffering and its origin. It is a truce of sorts, and for one who is intent on a truce, there is probably no better method for doing so, but the suttas tell a whole different story. One of not needing an alteration of sense faculties, nor one of needing an alteration of content to what is more manageable for day to day living. The training builds up a capacity for endurance of what is displeasing through the non-doing of what is unwholesome, but that is only half the battle, if that. Within that endurance one must discern why it is actually craving, not the “things in the world” that is the source of displeasure, which means that there is no need to make the content more manageable. Indeed, a person would benefit from practice in a more wholesome setting, but it is always in one’s capability to not give into the pressure to act out of craving that they can see that the pressure, not only arises on its own, but that it is within that non-action that one can begin to take responsibility for the choice to give in to that pressure or not.

While psychedelics make the entire experience less pressuring, it does not contribute to one’s strength in enduring the pressure. That is a subtle but critical distinction: a depressurized space is certainly less uncomfortable, but without that immense pressure one can avoid responsibility for giving in to sensuality and thus avoid the pain of restraint, completely missing out on the opportunity to embrace the field of renunciation. That “opening amidst confinement” cannot be utilized if the confinement is not recognized in all its intensity. In short, relieving that pressure through sensuality, with or without a substance, instead of allowing it to build up naturally, is relieving and comforting, but also blocks the opportunity to leave craving with no outlet, which would eventually lead to drying it out and destroying it for good.

Not like it matters, but, yes, I’ve taken these substances on many occasions in the past, and found them to be very fulfilling. Nevertheless, that isn’t the point of the Dhamma (as described in the Pali Canon), so I’m of the opinion that using them is hindrance to development and should be avoided.

4 Likes

No, breaststroke … :vulcan_salute:

Sorry, he’s mad :thinking:

anumodana :pray:

1 Like

Maybe it wasn’t for you, simple as that. Sitting for hours together with a bunch of other neurotic Western Buddhists freaks me out, but I do believe it’s the right thing for some. I’ve listened a lot to both sides/pros-cons, and I have no doubt that the right medicine AND the proper support is no obstacle to incorporating into the eightfold path. The only danger I see is the same we experience with blessing out in so-called deep Jhana, and that’s the craving arising to repeat experiences and fall for spiritual bypassing dressed up as Theravada Buddhist

Meanwhile I have done them a few times, and all but once, they were horrifying experiences and I very much stay away from them. I am just not quick to dismiss the idea that they were a part of many people’s spiritual journeys that brought them on to their paths, be it Buddhist, Christian, shamanic or otherwise. And even if it didn’t bring them directly onto their path… it was often a part of their explorations in figuring it all out, and indirectly may have played a role. Even my own horrifying experiences did give me a sense of the lack of solidity of existence… that very much, at the time, helped build my faith in Buddhism—and yes I was a baby beginner Buddhist and in my 20s at the time. I guess, I prefer not to be quick to judge other people’s paths. If they aren’t following the 5th precept, they aren’t genetically predisposed to psychiatric mental illness, and they are exploring spiritually, even as Buddhists, I see nothing wrong with a little experimentation. I am not saying it will bring them enlightenment… but a little experimentation in moderation can be a healthy thing in one’s spiritual journey.

1 Like