V&V in Sphuṭārthā Abhidharmakośavyākhyā

Discussion
72

Oh man, why you gotta test me like that :fearful:. Now I need to make sure I wasn’t using the wrong word again :sweat_smile:, like when I said “dialects” as a hasty slang for variations in strata of vocabulary that we find in all sorts of text (legal vs vernacular language, for instance).

I think I was actually thinking about the Westerly academic tradition of historical linguistics moreso than philology.

I think this what I should have said.

Let’s go back to talking about V & V in Sphuṭārthā Abhidharmakośavyākhyā. If we still want to discuss different ways to divide up the Chinese language into historical periods we can start another thread, since the subject matter is interesting and somewhat related to EBTs, being one of the dharma languages they are preserved in.

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73

It seems that Ven. Anālayo also holds the position that V&V in the jhāna context carries a subtler meaning than outside such context.

(I’m not sure if he was doing Chinese Āgama work at the time, and might have more to add now with his research there.)

https://dhammabooks.online/analayo/encyclopedia-entries/vitakka.pdf

…the above passages…make it clear that the first jhāna is something far deeper than the type of mental condition in which conceptual thought and reflection take place…

The solution to this conundrum can be found with the help of the Mahācattārīsaka Sutta [MN117], which in a list of near synonyms for right intention includes “application of the mind”, cetaso abhiniropanā, alongside vitakka… This indicates that the range of meaning of vitakka goes beyond conceptual thought as such, convering also the sense of an inclination of the mind. Both nuances of vitakka are in fact closely related to each other, since to reflect or think on something requires an inclination of the mind towards the topic or issue at hand.

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74

I did read B. Analayo’s vitakka pdf, as well as EBMS (early buddhist meditaton) book a while back.

So what do you guys think? Do you agree or disagree with his interpretation of V&V?

75

I agree that conceptual thought and reflection are superficial, yet it has taken me a while to puzzle out why they must be included and what exactly the link might be with that deeper inquiry mentioned above. Earlier I posted about ¨pouring the mind into a form¨ but retracted that upon considering the experience of speechlessness. Currently my working interpretation of V&V is ¨naming, the summoning of the named, speaking the name, or the consideration of the named¨. The word ¨naming¨ is important to me because it involves the recognition or creation of forms that arise in the context of directed consciousness or ¨application of the mind¨. In this way, ¨naming¨ has a deeper meaning than ¨thought¨. In fact, ¨naming and the consideration of the named¨ for me fits with ¨placing the mind and connecting it¨ as well as ¨application of the mind¨ and also with ¨thoughts and contemplation¨. The use of the word ¨naming¨ is particularly critical to me because when I was speechless, I lost the names but still had the forms.

Let us take an example.

Suppose we have the thought ¨hate¨. This thought is abstract and shallow and this abstraction allows us to do things like math: ¨I hate these people so they must die.¨ See? All very cold. Very shallow.

Now suppose I look at you directly in a quiet room. Just the too of us. I look into your eyes. You look into my eyes.

And I say: ¨I summon your hate¨. This is a very dangerous thing to do. It is immensely powerful and should bring you feeling of terror and dread. It should raise the hackles of hair on your neck. We do not say such words. I am just illustrating a point.

This is the power of ¨naming¨ vs. ¨thought¨.

Let us summon our metta.

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78

How would you teach me ‘vitakka’ and ‘vicāra’ per the EBTs which I currently cannot read in their native form? Currently my working interpretation based on all I’ve read so far and aligned with my meditation is “naming and contemplation of the named”. However, that is provisional pending more information, hence the question.

79

Thanks for speaking up @crizna. I hope others will also study this matter closely and carefully, and not just blindly follow what their teachers say.

I’m not opposed to Ajahn Brahm’s meditation system in and of itself. If he wants to promote that, and if it ends up becoming more popular than EBT meditation, so be it. But it needs to be done legitimately. Promote it on its own terms, on its own merits. It’s completely unethical to distort the EBT words and claim the EBT teaches that.

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when we’re working with something at a lower level than V&V, there are other terms the Buddha uses. The most basic sense of V&V, is you hear a teaching, memorize it, then “think” about it. That’s the most frequent context for V&V.

vitakka = thinking, vicara = pondering (the topic established by vitakka). It’s the same in jhana as it is in non-jhana. study this carefully, from a search for anu-vitakka and anu-vicara in the pali suttas:

MN 19

mn23 sujato - thinking and considering all day all night

Thinking and considering all night about what you did during the day—Yaṃ kho, bhikkhu, divā kammante ārabbha rattiṃ anuvitakketi anuvicāreti— this is the fuming at night. ayaṃ rattiṃ dhūmāyanā. The work you apply yourself to during the day by body, speech, and mind after thinking about it all night—Yaṃ kho, bhikkhu, rattiṃ anuvitakketvā anuvicāretvā divā kammante payojeti kāyena vācāya ‘manasā’— this is the flaming by day. ayaṃ divā pajjalanā. (2–3.)

mn 105 sujato - there’s already words for placing the mind!
Such an individual engages in pertinent conversation, thinking and considering in line with that. They associate with that kind of person, and they find it satisfying.
Lokāmisādhimuttassa kho, sunakkhatta, purisapuggalassa tappatirūpī ceva kathā saṇṭhāti, tadanudhammañca anuvitakketi, anuvicāreti, tañca purisaṃ bhajati, tena ca vittiṃ āpajjati;
But when talk connected with the imperturbable is going on they don’t want to listen. They don’t lend an ear or apply their minds to understand it. They don’t associate with that kind of person, and they don’t find it satisfying.
āneñjapaṭisaṃyuttāya ca pana kathāya kacchamānāya na sussūsati, na sotaṃ odahati, na aññā cittaṃ upaṭṭhāpeti, na ca taṃ purisaṃ bhajati, na ca tena vittiṃ āpajjati.

sn 46.3

an 3.112 sujato
And how does desire come up for things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present? Kathañca, bhikkhave, atīte chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha chando jāyati? In your heart you think about and consider things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present. Atīte, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti. When you do this, desire comes up, Tassa atīte chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha cetasā anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato chando jāyati.

an 5.26 sujato accidentally translates V&V correctly here

But the mendicant thinks about and considers the teaching in their heart, examining it with the mind as they learned and memorized it. api ca kho yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati. That mendicant feels inspired by the meaning and the teaching in that Dhamma, no matter how they think about and consider it in their heart, examining it with the mind as they learned and memorized it. Yathā yathā, bhikkhave, bhikkhu yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati tathā tathā so tasmiṃ dhamme atthapaṭisaṃvedī ca hoti dhammapaṭisaṃvedī ca. Feeling inspired, joy springs up. Tassa atthapaṭisaṃvedino dhammapaṭisaṃvedino pāmojjaṃ jāyati. Being joyful, rapture springs up. Pamuditassa pīti jāyati. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati. When the body is tranquil, one feels bliss. Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti. And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi. Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.

AN 5.73, 74 oral tradition
Furthermore, a mendicant thinks about and considers the teaching in their heart, examining it with the mind as they learned and memorized it.
Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhu, bhikkhu yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati.

an 5.155 oral tradition
Furthermore, the mendicants don’t think about and consider the teaching in their hearts, examining it with their minds as they learned and memorized it. Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhū yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ na cetasā anuvitakkenti anuvicārenti manasānupekkhanti. This is the fifth thing that leads to the decline and disappearance of the true teaching. Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, pañcamo dhammo saddhammassa sammosāya antaradhānāya saṃvattati.

an 6.51 oral
“Reverend Sāriputta, take a mendicant who memorizes the teaching—“Idhāvuso sāriputta, bhikkhu dhammaṃ pariyāpuṇāti— statements, songs, discussions, verses, inspired sayings, legends, stories of past lives, amazing stories, and analyses. suttaṃ geyyaṃ veyyākaraṇaṃ gāthaṃ udānaṃ itivuttakaṃ jātakaṃ abbhutadhammaṃ vedallaṃ. Then, just as they learned and memorized it, they teach others in detail, make them recite in detail, practice reciting in detail, and think about and consider the teaching in their heart, examining it with the mind. So yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena paresaṃ deseti, yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena paresaṃ vāceti, yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena sajjhāyaṃ karoti, yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati.

6.56 VVU phagguna uses V&V to attain arahantship
At the time of death they don’t get to see the Realized One, or to see a Realized One’s disciple. So tamhi samaye maraṇakāle na heva kho labhati tathāgataṃ dassanāya, napi tathāgatasāvakaṃ labhati dassanāya; But they think about and consider the teaching in their heart, examining it with the mind as they learned and memorized it. api ca kho yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati. As they do so their mind is freed from the five lower fetters. Tassa yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato manasānupekkhato pañcahi orambhāgiyehi saṃyojanehi cittaṃ vimuccati.

7.61 VVU moggallana drowsy strategy
But what if that doesn’t work? Then think about and consider the teaching as you’ve learned and memorized it, examining it with your mind. No ce te evaṃ viharato taṃ middhaṃ pahīyetha, tato tvaṃ, moggallāna, yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakkeyyāsi anuvicāreyyāsi, manasā anupekkheyyāsi.

DN 33, 34
yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati

81

This is so imprecise as to be unusable. The suttas distinguish between sights and thoughts.

Suppose I show a picture of a mountain to someone, have them close their eyes and ask them “what are you thinking about?”. Surely they will say “mountain” and see the sight of a mountain in their mind’s eye. That is what they are thinking about. A sight.

So we cannot simply translate vitakka as thinking. It is too vague.

On the other hand, “naming” is very precise. It involves a name, a form, and an association. The name is bound to the form. We can think with the names (symbolic thought) or we can think with the forms. The term vitakka only makes sense to me as a precise term by translating it to “naming and recollection of the named”. And correspondingly, vicara as “contemplation of the named”. This is what I do for a living. I name forms that create and understand names and forms.

82

I don’t think you read the sutta passages in the message.

especially AN 5.26.
Wheter inside or outside jhana, the context is one hears a teaching, learns ,then VITAKKA “Thinks” about it. The complexity of the object we’re working with, dhamma/teaching, means we’re using a higher order function of ‘thinking’, not placing the mind, naming objects, associating it with objects, etc. There is pre-existing pali vocabulary to do those more primitive functions. The Buddha does not need to redefine V&V, it would be redundant.

Read those passages carefully with that in mind.

edit, addition to your additional post:
Your field requires a more detailed and specific precision. Hearing a teaching, thinking about a teaching, is not that context where you need to deal with a lower granularity of detail. In second jhana and beyond, THAT is when you work with more primitive mental functions, and vocabulary exists for that.

83

For diligence, I just read AN5.26, and it is basically a part of what I hear everyday listening to DN33. And from that I disagree with your sentence “Vitakka thinks about it”. That is too vague. It is sloppy. Using this definition I cannot accomplish anything. We need to be precise.

My experience is that every word spoken (i.e., every name), summons up a form or forms and associated names. Yes we can wave our hands at that being “thinking”. But so is daydreaming and we do not daydream while meditating. So let us instead be very very precise.

When the suttas say “blue,” I see blueness. The name “blue” brings up all the associations for blue in my head. For me this is vitakka, the summoning of the named. When the suttas say “red”, I see redness and the blueness disappears. This is very precise and useful. The word “thinking” is not helpful to me so it must not be the exact translation of vitakka. In programming there is a very precise definition for name and form. They are different. The name is not the form. A form can have many names. Names can be associated and reassociated with different forms. Even the bringing up of a form from the name has a very precise definition in programming. We can name associations. We call them “bindings”.

Let us be precise and clear. How shall we define vitakka?

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84

These 3 suttas as a group, talk about V&V at the level of precision the Buddha uses. Any more precision than that, that’s your own field and your own needs and preferences.

MN 18, 19, 20

from MN 18:

Cakkhu + rūpe + viññāṇaṃ → phasso → vedeti (vedanā) → sañjānāti → vitakketi → papañceti
eye + forms + consciousness → contact → feel → perceive → think → proliferate

from MN 19,
we know first jhana, and prior to first jhana, it’s the same 3 exact types of skillful vitakka he talks about:

  1. nekkhamma: renunciation
  2. abyapada: non ill will
  3. vihimsa: non harm

so for first jhana and before first jhana, vitakka could be for example:
“May all beings be happy”. That’s also a vaci-sankhara ,vocalization-fabrication, the thoughts you think right before you speak, verbal words, verbal labels.

now second jhana, V&V drop out, but you can still have a residual perception of
“may all beings be happy.”, which is non verbal, not a vitakka, but it’s still a metta type of sañña/perception.

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85

This is actually quite helpful! Thank you. I will add MN18 to weekly study. :pray:

And the use of “think” here also does not work for me as too vague. I prefer “naming/summoning of the named”. For example, let us take two cases of seeing a face:

  1. The face is of someone I know. The eye sees the forms on the face and consciousness resolves those as being the form of a face with brown eyes, large nose, etc. In other words, there is contact. Next comes feeling “pleasant, unpleasant, neutral”. A familiar face is pleasant. And then gradually the familiar face resolves to a single remembered person. And then we have “vitakketi”, which is the resolving of the name as “My friend Bob!”. From there we have the proliferation of discourse.

  2. With a stranger, everything happens similarily (with a neutral feeling), but we have to create a new name, for “vitakketi”. So “the naming process” works here too. It provides a consistent understanding.

Since I have no validated experience of jhana. I would be speculating. But my experience of speechlessness and the loss of naming matches MN44 as the cessation of verbal processes distinct from mental processes, which, by the way, are also “thinking” (!). :rofl::scream: Do you see what a mess we get into by just using “think?”

However I believe that MN44 does not align verbal processes directly to any specific jhana.

Understanding vitakka in terms of the sequence you posted works for me. And I know that I will always be unhappy about the vague imprecision of “think” as used here and elsewhere. Fortunately, the context provides clarity with the steps described. This is why I find myself drawn to the Pali because I need that precision. And I shall continue with “naming and the contemplation of the named” for V&V until meditation or spiritual companions dissuade.

Thank you.

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86

Hello there. Can you say what you mean by “Yoga type meditation practice,” which I assume you are classifying as an incorrect meditation practice according to the EBTs? And can you explain what you see as as a correct meditation practice according to the same? Thanks in advance.

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88

This seems to be an attack on Ajahn Brahm suggesting he’s promoting meditation teachings illegitimately. This post also appears to say he’s being completely unethical. Is this a correct understanding of this post?

I have found similar posts in this thread to be distracting from the wholesome and from the dhamma. I was disappointed to see this post and similar ones here at sutta central. I look forward to reading more helpful ones that have really inspired my practice since I started participating in these forums. Hope we can find a way to put an end to the apparent disharmony among us.

That said, I appreciate the discussion on the different approaches to jhana and how they related to the EBTs. This tone of this thread just seems “harsh and bordering on anger.” It’s hard not to get sucked in.

may we all be free of anger and ill will. may we support the dhamma and each other’s practice. wishing all peace.

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90

On-line manners 101.

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91

We are aware that Pali words are broad in their meanings.

Some have the same word regardless of whether they are in a meditative context or not. For example happiness is different in a day to day context when compared to meditation.

First the two environments:

[From the Satipatthana sutta…]

32.5 When they feel a carnal pleasant feeling, they know: ‘I feel a carnal pleasant feeling.’Sāmisaṃ vā sukhaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘sāmisaṃ sukhaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti. (4)

32.6 When they feel a spiritual pleasant feeling, they know: ‘I feel a spiritual pleasant feeling.’Nirāmisaṃ vā sukhaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘nirāmisaṃ sukhaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti.

Here the word sukha is used for both meditative and day to day happiness. Sukha is a jhana factor and it would not be right to say that sukha in jhana is equal in experience to sukha in daily life. Now lets consider piti or rapture.

1.1 “Mendicants, there is carnal rapture, spiritual rapture, and even more spiritual rapture.“Atthi, bhikkhave, sāmisā pīti, atthi nirāmisā pīti, atthi nirāmisā nirāmisatarā pīti;

1.2 There is carnal pleasure, spiritual pleasure, and even more spiritual pleasure. Atthi sāmisaṃ sukhaṃ, atthi nirāmisaṃ sukhaṃ, atthi nirāmisā nirāmisataraṃ sukhaṃ;

Any rapture found in daily life is different to that found in jhanas.

Vitakka vicara are found along with happiness and rapture, in the jhana blended together.

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92

Please explain?

In MN44, the nun Dhammadinna says:

“But ma’am, which cease first for a mendicant who is entering the cessation of perception and feeling: physical, verbal, or mental processes?”
“Verbal processes cease first, then physical, then mental.”

I believe MN44 is EBT. What is your dispute with what is written?

93

To echo what @karl_lew posted above. Yes, the 4 āyatana/samāpatti (sometimes including a fifth ‘saññāvedayitanirodha’, cessation of perception and feeling) are not jhāna, but the Buddha in the EBT’s teaches them throughout. The suggestion in the EBT’s is that they are earlier practices, not later. From Gotama’s previous meditation teachers, incorporated into his wisdom teachings (as were other samādhi practices like jhāna). There are a few passages that suggest one can be liberated by wisdom through jhāna OR jhāna+samāpatti (if someone can dig these up, I might be misquoting).

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(regarding MN 44)
samadhi attainment #9, which is not the 4 jhanas, is where it talks about the 3 types of sankhara ceasing in a particular order before attainment, and the order they come back online after emerging.

If you want to know the role of vaci-sankhara (vocalized-speech fabrication) role in the 4 jhanas are, you should be studying SN 36.11.

  • vaci-sankhara = vitakka & vicara (thinking & evaluation, not placing the mind…)
  • vaca (vocalized-speech) ceases in first jhana. This doesn’t mean it’s impossible to speak while you’re in first jhana. What this means is if you choose to speak out, vibrate the vocal chords, flap the lips and make speech, then the energetic disruption would bring you out of first jhana.
  • vaci-sankhara (also known as V&V) ceases in 2nd jhana. This doesn’t mean you can’t think and ponder in second jhana. What this means is if you make the conscious decision to think and ponder, the energetic disruption would take you out of second jhana, back into first jhana. (see SN 40.1 and 40.2)

first jhana is vocal silence. second jhana is noble silence because thinking and pondering stop.

95

:tada::tada::tada::pray:

Thank you. I shall.