What exactly is the third Satipatthana and how does it differ from the fourth?

Discussion
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Dear Dhamma friends,

I’m interested in understanding this since it relates to my practice:

  1. The first and second Satipatthanas are relatively straightforward. Although I realized if “Sensations” would be a better translation of “Vedana” since the English word “feelings” is also related to the emotions being experienced in the mind?

  2. I assume that the third Satipatthana, Mind, is talking exclusively about the emotions being experienced in the mind since the mental noting of thinking/thoughts is done in the section of the 6-senses at the forth Satipatthana, Mind-Objects (or Principles).

  3. What’s the exact difference between the 3rd Satipatthana and the 4th since they have similar objects: what would be the difference of noting “Mind with greed” with noting the first hindrance “‘I have sensual desire in me” or “Mind with Hate” with “I have ill will in me”? For me it’s the exact same or maybe because my mind is still gross and underdeveloped so I don’t notice the subtle differences (if there are any)?

3. Observing the Mind

And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of the mind?

It’s when a mendicant understands mind with greed as ‘mind with greed,’ and mind without greed as ‘mind without greed.’ They understand mind with hate as ‘mind with hate,’ and mind without hate as ‘mind without hate.’ They understand mind with delusion as ‘mind with delusion,’ and mind without delusion as ‘mind without delusion.’ They know constricted mind as ‘constricted mind,’ and scattered mind as ‘scattered mind.’ They know expansive mind as ‘expansive mind,’ and unexpansive mind as ‘unexpansive mind.’ They know mind that is not supreme as ‘mind that is not supreme,’ and mind that is supreme as ‘mind that is supreme.’ They know mind immersed in samādhi as ‘mind immersed in samādhi,’ and mind not immersed in samādhi as ‘mind not immersed in samādhi.’ They know freed mind as ‘freed mind,’ and unfreed mind as ‘unfreed mind.’

And so they meditate observing an aspect of the mind internally, externally, and both internally and externally. They meditate observing the mind as liable to originate, as liable to vanish, and as liable to both originate and vanish. Or mindfulness is established that the mind exists, to the extent necessary for knowledge and mindfulness. They meditate independent, not grasping at anything in the world.

That’s how a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the mind.

and

4. Observing Principles

4.1. The Hindrances

And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles?

It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five hindrances. And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five hindrances?

It’s when a mendicant who has sensual desire in them understands: ‘I have sensual desire in me.’ When they don’t have sensual desire in them, they understand: ‘I don’t have sensual desire in me.’ They understand how sensual desire arises; how, when it’s already arisen, it’s given up; and how, once it’s given up, it doesn’t arise again in the future.

When they have ill will in them, they understand: ‘I have ill will in me.’ When they don’t have ill will in them, they understand: ‘I don’t have ill will in me.’ They understand how ill will arises; how, when it’s already arisen, it’s given up; and how, once it’s given up, it doesn’t arise again in the future.

for example.

With Metta.

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Essentially, the third abode of mindfulness involves being aware of the mind. The fourth abode of mindfulness involves thinking constantly about different teachings like the five hindrances. Since the teachings involve being aware of good and bad mental qualities and training the mind, there’s some overlap between the two. I would imagine, though, that the third abode is preparation for the fourth abode. A person needs to be fully aware of their own mind to know how to train it when they move on to the teachings.

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I think the 4th mindfulness is of mental objects, for example, one knows when sensual desire is present or hate or greed or pride or joy, etc. It is like knowing the content of the mind.

The third is more being mindful of the state of mind. Mental factors , the content, do something with the mind. For example, loving kindness immediately opens the mind and it is like it becomes boundless.
Anger makes the mind compact, stressed furious, litterly on fire. In this sense mind can be open, closed, restricted, concentrated, liberated, attached, detached, calm, on fire. Mind can be tense, relaxed, jumpy, obsessive, etc.

i belief this is meant by mindfulness of the mind. It is not particular mindfull of content but more at the quality or state of mind. This changes all the time too. One might have a tense mind because one feels lonely and while one has a nice contact one feels how mind relaxes, and the fire goes away.
Mindful of those two states of mind.

At least, this is how i understand these satipatthana’s. If i am deluded, i hope others will correct this.

Best wishes

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This is a frequent problem, and one of the reasons for it is that the content of the fourth satipatthana has been expanded over time. I studied this in depth in my A History of Mindfulness. Originally, the fourth satipatthana consisted of the five hindrances and the seven awakening factors, and maybe the four noble truths. This then makes the whole thing much clearer.

The essential thing that distinguishes the fourth satipatthana is causality. In the third, we understand the state of mind when affected by or free of greed, etc. In the fourth, we understand how that greed arises, what causes it, and how to be free of it. In other words, it is here that understanding comes to the fore.

Another thing to bear in mind is that in meditation contexts in the Suttas, citta is normally used as a synonym or quasi-synonym for samādhi (cittasampadā = samādhisampadā, cittabhāvanā = samādhibhāvanā, etc.). Likewise, the emphasis in the third satipatthana is on samādhi. Of course, it’s broader than that, but it certainly includes it.

Neither is perfect, but “sensations” risks being confused with sense impressions, i.e. poṭṭhabba.

As others have noticed, it’s more about the state of mind, or the quality of awareness. Of course, the quality of awareness is closely related to emotional states.

Again, these are all later concepts.

  • The fourth satipatthana is about understanding causality (which is why I use “principles” here). It doesn’t talk about “thinking” as such.
  • the six senses were added later.
  • The idea of “mind objects” is from the Abhidhamma, and is not found in the Suttas.

In the 3rd, you are aware of how your mind is when it has greed in it. Typically, a greedy mind is narrowed and constricted. It has interest and energy, but only for what it wants. In meditation, you’ll observe that when greed is present, the mind returns again and again to what it wants, and does not let go and become expansive.

In the 4th, you have already seen what it is like both to have greed and be free of it. Then, when you are aware that greed is arising, you learn to understand the process by which greed arises and that by which it is let go.

It’s when a mendicant who has sensual desire in them understands: ‘I have sensual desire in me.’ When they don’t have sensual desire in them, they understand: ‘I don’t have sensual desire in me.’ They understand how sensual desire arises; how, when it’s already arisen, it’s given up; and how, once it’s given up, it doesn’t arise again in the future.

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I have something of a “hot take” on this, essentially my evolving understanding is that the fundamental site of attention is the body, sustained attention on the body develops into awareness of sensations which leads to awareness of emotions (taken as states of mind) and finally of the phenomenology of the rise and fall of these physical-sensational-emotional “towers” i.e our body does something, in and of itself neutral, then with the experiencing of it as “sensation” it takes on positive negative or neutral “color” leading to pleasure or displeasure of confusion etc in our emotional/mental state, these chains of arising and ceasing are what we can know-by-seeing as the 4th base of attention.

So the 4th attention isn’t a kind of mental review of doctrinal formulae, rather it is the clear seeing of the conditioned phenomenality of experience, the examples given in the sutta being just that, examples, of what is “wise attention”, so they are frameworks for wisely parsing the experience, not explicit or verbalised thoughts in the sense of internally reciting the doctrine in the mind, although that’s probably a great thing to do and a way to start…

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Oh definitely. Using the doctrinal categories can be helpful initially, but I would always encourage people to drop that as quickly as possible, for it risks trapping the mind in the known. The 4th satipatthana emerges from samādhi, and it is a clear-eyed insight into the nature of causality.

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The first three satipatthanas deal with body, feelings, mind, and feelings are the link between body and mind. The fourth satipatthana deals with actions or processes that can be applied to any of the preceeding three, just as fire forms a productive partnership with clay, water, or air if used with skill. The Buddha had a particular awareness of fire acting on earth (metal) to refine gold.

"Just as if a skilled goldsmith or goldsmith’s apprentice were to prepare a furnace, heat up a crucible, and, taking gold with a pair of tongs, place it in the crucible: He would blow on it time & again, sprinkle water on it time & again, examine it time & again, so that the gold would become refined, well-refined, thoroughly refined, flawless, free from dross, pliant, malleable, & luminous. "—MN 140

The third satipatthana state of mind is the ‘mood’ of the mind, the underlying layer which gives rise to the evanescent verbal thoughts. One way of indirectly divining the state of mind is to observe which kinds of thoughts are regularly arising:

“And how is a monk skilled in reading his own mind?”—AN 10.51

The other way is to observe the state of mind directly, which is a skill to be developed by suspending attention on the verbal dialogue, and it can be seen through contrast when one state of mind is changing to another. It’s possible when meditating to have the inner dialogue going on while at the same time the state of mind is becoming progressively more calm. As the practitioner comes out of the meditation they perceive a difference in state of mind and perception compared to that before meditation. With practice over time the practitioner should get more extensive access to the elusive state of mind.

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Thanks Bhante Sujato, that aspect, not unimportant, i overlooked in the 4th satipatthana. So, maybe one can say that the fourth satipatthana is more linked with right effort? A more active attitude to wilfully and skilfully abandon unwholesome states while arisen?

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Not really: right effort underlies all meditation. The crucial point here is wisdom.

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Yes. Regarding wisdom, the insight group of the seven factors of awakening are represented by the element fire:

"In the same way, monks, on any occasion the mind is sluggish, that is the wrong time to develop calm as a factor for awakening, concentration as a factor for awakening, equanimity as a factor for awakening. Why is that? The sluggish mind is hard to raise up by those mental qualities.

"Now, on any occasion when the mind is sluggish, that is the right time to develop analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, persistence as a factor for awakening, rapture as a factor for awakening. Why is that? The sluggish mind is easy to raise up by those mental qualities. Just as if a man, wanting to make a small fire blaze up, were to place dry grass in it, dry cow dung, & dry sticks; were to blow on it with his mouth and not smother it with dust. Is it possible that he would make the small fire blaze up?

"Yes, lord.—SN 46. 53

Investigation (analysis of qualities) is linked to right effort. Here we have moved from the noble eightfold path and are seeing things at a more elemental level as expressed in the factors of awakening.

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Yes, there’s the aspect of wisdom and i think also the aspect of right effort, namely, in giving up arisen sensual desire the moment it arises.

In the texts sati is often mentioned together with sampajanna(m) or sampajano. Is sampajanna not the aspect of wisdom?

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In MN 117 right view, right effort, and right mindfulness circle around other factors operating on them for transcendence, indicating they form an active triad. Right view of the 4NT’s is the plan, right effort the strategy, right mindfulness the gatekeeper. The energetic quality of this triad has an equivalent at the level of the seven factors of awakening where investigation, energy, and joy constitute the active group, with mindfulness the overall governing factor (SN 46.53).

“And what is the food for the arising of unarisen analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of analysis of qualities… once it has arisen? There are mental qualities that are skillful & unskillful, blameworthy & blameless, gross & refined, siding with darkness & with light. To foster appropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of analysis of qualities… once it has arisen.”—SN 46.51

Investigation analyzes phenomena as they occur in terms of cause and effect, skillful and unskillful.

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