What were Moggallāna's training methods for monks?

[Deeele]

@Christopher

Sāriputta the major emphasis was on wisdom and for Moggallāna on the meditative “liberation of the mind” (cetovimutti). For this reason Sāriputta guided disciples to the intuitive understanding of liberating truth, the breakthrough to the Dhamma (dhammābhisamaya), the vision of things in their real undistorted nature. With Moggallāna, who knew well the subtle and tortuous labyrinths of the mind, the stress was on harnessing the forces of concentration toward the removal of all remaining defilements and fetters.

This corresponds with DD’s suggestion. Thank you for the research & quote.

SN 12.70 reports that many arahants did not have psychic powers.

So this holy life, bhikkhus, does not have gain, honour, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of virtue for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakeable (akuppā) deliverance of mind (cetovimutti) that is the goal of this holy life, its heartwood and its end (completion).

MN 29 MN 30

[Mkoll]

[quote=“Deeele, post:5, topic:3836, full:true”]SN 12.70 reports that many arahants did not have psychic powers.

So this holy life, bhikkhus, does not have gain, honour, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of virtue for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakeable (akuppā) deliverance of mind (cetovimutti) that is the goal of this holy life, its heartwood and its end (completion).

MN 29 MN 30
[/quote]
I think the reason they didn’t is not that they were incapable of developing them, but rather they just didn’t feel the need to develop them. They’d be a lot less appealing and exciting to develop when one can enter and dwell in Nibbana.

The suttas make it clear that their is a path to developing psychic powers, namely developing the 4 bases of power, e.g. SN 51.20.

[Deeele]

@Mkoll

The suttas make it clear

This is not clear that it applies to all individuals. Where as arahants with full mental mastery devoid of psychic powers & beings such as Mara & Devadatta with psychic powers is clear & indisputable.

[Mkoll]

[quote=“Deeele, post:7, topic:3836, full:true”]

@Mkoll

The suttas make it clear

This is not clear that it applies to all individuals.[/quote]
So nothing in the suttas applies to all individuals unless it specifically says so? If so, the vast majority of the suttas would fall into your “not applying to all individuals” category. I actually can’t recall a phrase from the suttas that resembles “(not) applying to all individuals.” Could you provide one?

@Deele

Where as arahants with full mental mastery devoid of psychic powers & beings such as Mara & Devadatta with psychic powers is clear & indisputable.

Which means those with psychic powers developed the 4 bases of power to the extent necessary to attain them. And those without psychic powers did not develop the 4 bases of power to the extent necessary to attain them.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[Deeele]

@Mkoll

So nothing in the suttas applies to all individuals unless it specifically says so?

This line of reasoning is unrelated to what I intended to write.

As I originally posted, it is an established principle that all arahants did not & were unable to develop psychic powers, such as Venerable Sariputta. Refer to Ud 4.4.

I think reading DN 11 may help overcome passion & infatuation with things outside of the fundamentals or Heartwood of the Buddha-Dhamma.

Regards

…it does not belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, it does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna

[Mkoll]

@Deeele

[quote=“Mkoll”]So nothing in the suttas applies to all individuals unless it specifically says so?[/quote]This line of reasoning is unrelated to what I intended to write.

It follows logically from what you did write.

@Deeele

As I originally posted, it is an established principle that all arahants did not & were unable to develop psychic powers, such as Venerable Sariputta. Refer to Ud 4.4.

Yes, it is well-established in the suttas that not all arahants had psychic powers. It is not established that they—or anyone for that matter—were incapable of developing them if they so choose. Keep in mind that a person could die before attaining any sort of fruition of that development (or any development, for that matter).

Nowhere in Ud 4.4 does it say that Ven. Sariputta was unable of developing psychic powers.

[quote=“Deele”]I think reading DN 11 may help overcome passion & infatuation with things outside of the fundamentals or Heartwood of the Buddha-Dhamma.

Regards

…it does not belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, it does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna
[/quote]
That sutta distinguishes between displaying psychic powers to others vs. developing them. The former the Buddha felt “horrified, humiliated, and disgusted” about, the latter he praised as a “miracle of instruction.”

I don’t recall the Buddha explicitly saying that the development of psychic powers is not a fundamental of the holy life. I imagine it would be a fundamental to the holy life for one who chose to develop them for wholesome reasons.

[Deeele]

@Mkoll

I don’t recall the Buddha explicitly saying that the development of psychic powers is not a fundamental of the holy life.

This might assist in our recollection:

"And what have I taught? ‘This is stress… This is the origination of stress… This is the cessation of stress… This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress’: This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them. SN 56.31

In case you forgot:

So this holy life, bhikkhus, does not have gain, honour, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of virtue for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakeable (akuppā) deliverance of mind (cetovimutti) that is the goal of this holy life, its heartwood and its end (completion).

MN 29 MN 30

[Mkoll]

@Deeele

@Mkoll

I don’t recall the Buddha explicitly saying that the development of psychic powers is not a fundamental of the holy life.

This might assist in our recollection:

"And what have I taught? ‘This is stress… This is the origination of stress… This is the cessation of stress… This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress’: This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them. SN 56.31[/quote]
The Buddha taught the development of the 4 bases of power, whose fruit includes the development of psychic powers. That is what he taught. Why has he taught that? Because it is connected to the goal. That is why he taught it.

[quote=“Deele”]In case you forgot:

So this holy life, bhikkhus, does not have gain, honour, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of virtue for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakeable (akuppā) deliverance of mind (cetovimutti) that is the goal of this holy life, its heartwood and its end (completion).

MN 29 MN 30

You are equivocating two different things: (1) the path or “rudiments of the holy life” that lead to “disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding” and (2) the actual goal it is leading to, the “goal of this holy life, its heartwood and its end (completion).”

Given your continued non-response to many of the points I'm making, it has become clear to me that you're not interested in fair debate. So I will bow out of this conversation with you.

[sandundhanushka]

@Christopher

1, the Buddha says,

Cultivate the friendship of Sāriputta and Moggallāna, bhikkhus; associate with Sāriputta and Moggallāna. They are wise and helpful to their companions in the holy life. Sāriputta is like a mother; Moggallāna is like a nurse. Sāriputta trains others for the fruit of stream-entry, Moggallāna for the supreme goal.

Does this indicate that Sāriputta would hand off the training of the new sotāpannas to Moggallāna? Are there any suttas that give clues as to how Moggallāna trained his students? I can speculate that he specialized in teaching deeper samādhi and perhaps psychic powers, but I’d like to know if anyone can point to any early texts that indicate his curriculum.

It is apparent that ven. Maha moggallāna was capable of entering into a deeper ecstasy of concentration. Sāriputta was endowed with great wisdom and perhaps he might have taught the basic and fundamental teachings required for stream entry. According to the Sutta students of sāriputta had to consult mahamoggallāna in order to reach full enlightenment. Does this suggest that the four jhānas are essential for full liberation?

[Gabriel_L]

@sandundhanushka

Does this suggest that the four jhānas are essential for full liberation?

The fullfilment of the fourth noble/enobbling task of cultivating the eightfold path in its entirety, including the four jhanas (explicitly equated to samma samadhi in EBTs), is definitely essential for the fulfillment of the third noble/enobbling task of realising/verifying by oneself the end of suffering (aka Nibbana).

[sandundhanushka]

Are the four jhānas essential to become an anāgamin ? And of course samma samādhi is a essential factor in the middle path but are the "four jhānas " essential? Why not something inferior to them? Maybe a lower form of concentration?

[Gabriel_L]

Well, if we follow the order of things we find in the EBTs any of the four stages of awakening - as gradual levels of fullfilment of the four noble tasks - should be understood to require a level of cultivation and fruition of all of the factors of the eightfold path that the fourth noble task points to.

If you see it from the perspective of the required levels of abandoning or weakening of the fetters these fruitions are all about I understand that the EBTs imply that in all cases - from the stream-winner to the arahant - only the insight made viable by the stillness of samma samadhi (i.e. jhanas) would make those fruitions possible.

Now, it is always worth reflecting where we are trying to get to when our minds wander towards these lines of enquiry. In my case, whenever I find myself wondering - or doubting - whether jhanas are really needed for the path to be cultivated in its entirety I surely see my mind trying to scape the task of allowing these deep and powerful states of stillness to arise. This is natural and expected for one of the obstacles and reasons we are what we are (i.e. unawakened things) is for doubt and skepticism about the four noble truths still corrupts our hearts.

Then, with good will and compassion I try in turn to gently refuel my faith and confidence in the Dhamma of the Buddhas - by contemplating anussatis, studying the Suttas, listening to Dhamma talks, engaging to constructive conversations about the EBTs here, etc - and notice that once correctly inspired those second thoughts are quickly discarded and beautiful things start to occur through my days, including when sitting comfortably on my preferred chair and cultivating mindfulness with breathing.

[Mkoll]

That’s a good question. According to AN 9.36, even the first jhana is enough for arahantship and of course, non-returning. Yet that seems to contradict the 4 jhanas as being part of Right Concentration in the Noble Eightfold Path. But perhaps that limb does not need to be fully developed, i.e. one must attain all 4 jhanas, to attain arahantship; perhaps one only needs to attain 1. Perhaps this same principle applies to the Right Mindfulness and one only needs to develop a certain degree of mastery in just 1 of the satipatthanas—MN 119 seems to support this.

The chapter on liberation in Excursions into the Thought-World of the Pali Discourses By Ven. Analayo has a lot more and better information than my surmisings.

[Deeele]

@Mkoll

According to AN 9.36, even the first jhana is enough for arahantship

I personally would be very wary or heedful of a translation of one single obscure sutta tucked away in the AN that seems to purport an unconventional view. Instead, I would examine the sutta thoroughly.

For example, the 1st jhana is certainly a ‘support’ for the ending of the ‘asava’ (‘outflow of mental impurities’) but the 1st jhana itself may not end the asava.

Also, the mind intent on the taste of Nibbana (non-attachment & dispassion) rather than the taste of the factors of jhana themselves (such as rapture) may know or gain a footing in the Deathless. even though arahantship has not been reached. SN 48.10 states, to reach the 1st jhana, the Noble Disciples makes ‘letting go’ (‘vossagga’) the primary meditation object.

Each Noble Person would seem to know the flavour of the Deathless Nibbana (which is why they have complete faith in the teachings), but the arahant knows it completely; i.e., is an ‘expert’.

Just as the great ocean has but one taste, the taste of salt, so too this Dhamma has but one taste, the taste of freedom.

AN 8.19

[sandundhanushka]

@Mkoll

Perhaps this same principle applies to the Right Mindfulness and one only needs to develop a certain degree of mastery in just 1 of the satipatthanas

well, i can’t accept this . in my point of view all four satipatthanas are essential for awakening. each satipatthana directs the yogi to a different aspect of realization. mindfulness of the body is to be practiced intensively and frequently but it does not mean that the rest of the satipatthanas are to be abandoned. if the rest of the satipatthanas are abandoned one will not be able to master the mind. vedana ( feelings ) is an important link in the chain of dependent origination. if the contemplation of feelings are abandoned you’re ignoring that feelings are playing a major role in the dependent origination. in order to attain enlightenment one should deconstruct the dependent origination , and once the craving towards feelings are destroyed the whole chain of dependent origination is destroyed.

Ñāṇaponika 1983: 5 points out that “Contemplation of Feeling can unfold its full strength as an efficient tool for breaking the chain of suffering at its weakest link.”

Analayo. Perspectives on Satipatthana (Kindle Locations 3626-3627). Windhorse Publications. Kindle Edition.

What causes the arising of dukkha are thus ignorant reactions (links 1 and 2), which manifest when feeling leads to craving, etc. (links 8, 9, and 10). This clearly puts a spotlight on feeling. It is at this juncture that ignorance needs to be deconditioned, so that reactions by way of craving can be avoided. In other words, feeling is the link where the presence of mindfulness can have a decisive effect on the dependent arising of dukkha. Expressed in practical terms, being mindful of feelings enables one to become aware of the conditioned genesis of dukkha right at its inception.In this way, contemplation of feelings can become the decisive condition that ensures that the ever-changing process of causes and conditions that make up experience eventually leads to the experience of the unconditioned. In the case of an arahant, volitional formations that are rooted in ignorance have been forever eradicated and feeling can no longer lead to craving.

Analayo. Perspectives on Satipatthana (Kindle Locations 3246-3248). Windhorse Publications. Kindle Edition.

from MN 10 :

“Monastics, this is the path where all things come together as one, to purify sentient beings, to make an end of pain and sadness, to get past sorrow and lamentation, to reach the way, to witness Nibbāna; that is, the four kinds of mindfulness meditation

Here,What four? a monastic meditates by observing an aspect of the body, keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. They meditate by observing an aspect of feelings, keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. They meditate by observing an aspect of the mind, keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. They meditate by observing an aspect of principles, keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world

Monastics, anyone who develops the four kinds of mindfulness meditation in this way for seven years may expect one of two results: final enlightenment in this very life, or if there is anything left over, non-return.

Throughout the satipatthana sutta and its parallels no satipatthana is mentioned individually. if one satipatthana was sufficient for awakening, buddha would have preached the contemplation of the body,feelings,mind and dhammas separately. wherever the satipatthanas are mentioned in the nikaya/agama ( anuruddha samyutta, satipatthana samyutta etc. ) they are mentioned in the four fold manner.

so my point is that all four satipatthanas are essential, but one could develop a particular type of satipatthana intensively than the rest of the satipatthanas but non of them to be ignored or abandoned.

this is my current opinion on this and you have the freedom of rejection.

thanks.
with metta .

[Mkoll]

I don’t reject those views. My previous post was more indulgent errant speculation than a serious reply intended to start debate. I’ve got no horse in this race.

[Christopher]

I also would always advise someone to cultivate all four satipatthana, but since you quoted from Perspectives on Satipatthana, I did want to point out that Venerable Analayo, in his first Satipatthana book, states (p. 22):

Several discourses relate the practice of a single satipatthana directly to realization.

The discourses he cites are:
SN47.11

And how, Sāriputta, does one have a liberated mind? Here, Sāriputta, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. As he dwells contemplating the body in the body, the mind becomes dispassionate, and by nonclinging it is liberated from the taints.

“He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. As he dwells contemplating phenomena in phenomena, the mind becomes dispassionate, and by nonclinging it is liberated from the taints.

SN47.37

Bhikkhus, there are these four establishments of mindfulness. What four? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. As he dwells thus contemplating the body in the body, whatever desire he has for the body is abandoned. With the abandoning of desire, the Deathless is realized.

“He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena … having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. As he dwells thus contemplating phenomena in phenomena, whatever desire he has for phenomena is abandoned. With the abandoning of desire, the Deathless is realized.

and SN43.12

And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world: this is called the path leading to the unconditioned….”

x … “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world….”

xi … “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating mind in mind, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world….”

xii … “And what, bhikkhus is the path leading to the unconditioned? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world: this is called the path leading to the unconditioned….

I do believe that it is possible to reach liberation through specializing in the practice of one satipatthana, but that’s only because the other satipatthanas, and indeed all other relevant dhammas, will necessarily be experienced and understood before liberation is reached. It seems to me that one cannot contemplate very deeply on any one satipatthana without encountering all of the others, inextricably interwoven as they are.

It seems to me that’s what you’re saying too, sandundhanushka.

[Deeele]

@Christopher

I do believe that it is possible to reach liberation through specializing in the practice of one satipatthana

What is the basis of such “belief” or “conviction” here? The reading of some sutta translations?

SN 54.8 states:

So if a monk should wish: ‘May neither my body be fatigued nor my eyes, and may my mind, through lack of clinging, be released from fermentations,’ then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness with in-&-out breathing.

Now, the above excerpt from SN 54.8 does not sound like arahantship to me. It sounds like some temporary respite.

For arahantship, the asava (taints; fermentations) must be destroyed; completely uprooted; incapable of ever flowing-out or arising again.

I would suggest to thoroughly analyze those many suttas you quoted to discern exactly what is written there in respect to the taints, the Deathless, etc.

AN 10.58 states: “All (skillful lokuttara) dhamma (practises) gain a footing in the Deathless”, which would include the sati-sampajanna practises of a stream-enterer, who would know the taste or flavour of the Deathless Nibbana (dukkha nirodha) even though not fully consummating Nibbana.

SN 13.1 describes the experience of a bona-fide stream-enterer:

for a noble disciple who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains… is next to nothing: it’s not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That’s how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That’s how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye.

@Christopher

it is possible to reach liberation through specializing in the practice of one satipatthana, but that’s only because the other satipatthanas, and indeed all other relevant dhammas, will necessarily be experienced and understood before liberation is reached. It seems to me that one cannot contemplate very deeply on any one satipatthana without encountering all of the others, inextricably interwoven as they are.

The factors of jhana do not include awareness of breathing or the physical body. Or, in the 13th stage of Anapanasati, it is written the primary meditation object is impermanence itself (rather than any specific nama or rupa dhamma, such as breathing, feelings, mental states, etc).

It seems apparent that the 1st satipatthana falls away as practise progresses (despite certain relatively small insights occurring in the 1st satipatthana about the mind, impermanence, etc).

[Christopher]

@Deeele

What is the basis of such “belief” or “conviction” here? The reading of some sutta translations? Or is this declaration of belief a declaration of arahantship from full realisation?

That’s funny, Deeele. I like that. The basis is just a reckoning based on my study and practice thus far. If I was an arahant, I wouldn’t need to use the word “believe”, would I? I could just state it as a fact. Where I’m from, the word “believe” can be used in the sense of “reckon”, “think”, “guess”, “estimate”.

It’s certainly not something I’m taking a stand on. I was just pointing out to sandundhanushka where Venerable Analayo had made a certain point relevant to sandundhanushka’s previous reply. I just listed the relevant sections of the suttas for everyone’s convenience.

Regarding the rest of your post, you may be right, my friend. But is there a way we can steer this discussion back to Moggallāna’s training methods?

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

I just read that somewhere else but it made me think that the tradition of Abhidharma by Sāriputta makes me have the opinion that Sāriputta taught that style for helping to reach Sotapanna now. It kinda makes sense. Because it’s related knowing all sort divisions. By the time you become a sotapanna then meditation with analysis in Abhidhamma lessons should help you with Ven Moggallāna teaching. Since it was probably necessary that you understand how things are in words for you to then learn it in real life.

Second thoughts about Abhidharma now.