Which Tradition to follow

This is very interesting because I have several San Pedro cactus which contain the awesome teacher Mescalito, to whom I owe much for the visionary states it has provided me. And I do realize that feeding one’s senses is not encouraged as a Buddhist method for finding enlightenment. Bu I also must confess that it was through my early use of psychedelics that I first understood, in a very personal first-hand experience, the essence of phenomenology. In seeing the distortion of the physical components of this material world, and seeing the breakdown of light into a rainbow, electric color spectrum I understood that the world of things did not exist as described by conventional language. Yet is a temporal experience who duration and intensity we can not control, and thus is a mere taste of what true liberation must represent. Here is my written account of that experience for anyone who is interested:

One of my favorite stories found in the book “Be Here, Be Now” by Ram Dass he tells of his intial trip to India., and how he gave a Yogi four hits of LSD which did not seem to affect him at all. Would this indicate that through some practice or effort that this Yogi had manage to pierce the veil of ‘normal perception’? I have only questions. Namaste

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More on soma…

http://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_than_fiction/2017/01/09/how-russian-scientists-cracked-the-secret-of-a-riga-veda-era-drink_676758

“The weight of evidence suggests that soma, the ancient ritual drink, has been prepared from the mushrooms of family strophariaceae which contains the unique nervous system stimulator psilocybin.”

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In this link you find photos of the tapestry. Not very convincing… :no_mouth:

image

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@Rosie

Thank you for your generous response. I am so happy to have found someone else who is familiar with the infamous Mr. Iyengar. I got a very brief course from a man named Michael Geison during my time in north Florida. He was quite an adept, but dwelling deeply in ignorance his heart was obscured. I continue to value his teachingApparently I was a little confused about the origins of yogic tradition.


To reply on your query ,the practices in Yoga can be categorized in to

1.preparatory-

Asanas to improve physical fitness to prepare person for advanced spiritual practices eg.meditation where person will be required to spent long time sitting cross legged.Sadly this preparatory exercise identified as yoga around the world

2.Shuddi kriyas :Cleaning of the body - cleaning of the body internally with shatkarmas like kapalbhati, neti - nasal cleaning etc to prevent illnesses and accumulation of toxins known as doshas.

3.Pranayama: exercises of breath control

Considered as an advanced practice

  1. Bandhas /Activation / of energy/ nerve centres : chakra meditations.

The bandhas are highly powerful excercises, with deep spiritual significance,practiced after expiration of breath and maintaining locks eg. Uddiyana bandha, nauli kriya, maha bandha. This enhances flow of prana , life breath force channels in your body.You can refer you tube videos of Olivier Berg for authentic explanation.However it is recommended to practice e under guidance of an expert.The bandhas energize and channelize the various energy forces in the body and enhances meditative capabilities.In olden days these were teached only to advanced practitioners and are considered to have high spiritual significance

  1. Meditation : which is the ultimate aim. The aim of yoga is to merge ones soul or atman in to supreme consciousness, parmatman. Other versions are cessation of all mental thoughts.There are two energy channels or nadis, ida (sun)nadi and pingla (moon)nadi which is generates heat and cools your body respectively.Only one of your nostril works at a time at any part of the day.Ida is active when your right nostril is working and Pingla is active when , left nostril is working which cools the body.These are also called as ha nadi and tha nadi from which the word hatha yoga is derived. When breath is done through both nostrils at the same time a third channel of energy called sushumna is activated, which is said to activate kundalini, spiritual awakenin.The body attempts to breath through both nostrils in early morning 4 to 5 am which is also called the Brahma muhurat.------------------

The authentic texts on hatha yoga are Hathayoga Pradipika and Gheranda Samhita

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If you already seen the truth and the way leading to true release, then all means will do because your heart will guide you along the way.

:slightly_smiling_face:

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Thanks so much for that excellent explanation. But I copied and pasted that name-Olivier Berg -on Youtube and got no relavant results. Would you have a link by any chance?

While I generally agree with this, there is also immense value in having a good teacher and trusting them to guide you.

To that end, @Rosie, you may be interested in Saints and Psychopaths - a surprisingly good book on how to approach assessing a teacher.

Best of luck on your search, and let us know if you find any gold! :smile:

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Thanks so much for that excellent explanation. But I copied and pasted that name-Olivier Berg -on Youtube and got no relavant results. Would you have a link by any chance?

@ Rosie
You can search for youtube video of Simon Borg Olivier and uddiyana bandha and Nauli kriya

Another good video.link on nauli

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0vzhcnRrXgU&ved=2ahUKEwjl2OnQ-7DrAhVMb30KHbk-DiAQwqsBMAB6BAgDEAM&usg=AOvVaw0VMcQ5RtgwYctuJuEqEc2O

How great to see a sensible piece of advice in this otherwise extremely strange and scrambled thread (just mho). … What do you know of the author William L. Hamilton, in terms of his own legitimacy?

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Oh, totally illegitimate! He’s a new age, “human potential movement” spiritualist crank.

That’s why it’s so surprising that his book actually isn’t too bad at what it reports to do: namely help one distinguish psychopaths from (more) trustworthy spiritual teachers.

But yeah, you’ll have to ignore the parts on “enlightenment” :joy:

I picked this book for this thread specifically as it’s written by and for the kind of… DIY personality… this thread seems to have attracted.

Why do you ask?

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I had a quick skim and found it a mix of strange autobiographical experieces, opinions, generalisations with no real advice. …

EG I can’t disagree with the following, but it doesn’t bring me any closer to knowing how to find “that” teacher for myself:

2.1.1. There are more psychopaths than saints

Psychopaths pretending to be saints present a very serious problem for all spiritual traditions. There are many more psychopaths pretending to be saints than there are real saints. If you have a true saint for a teacher, then you have a real possibility for spiritual attainments, including enlightenment. If your teacher is a psychopath, then you may become a programmed puppet, and you risk being , sexually or financially abused. You also may lose your job, your family and possibly even your sanity. Eventually you risk disillusionment in the pursuit of any spiritual quests.

If I missed something please let me know. I have friends who have found legitimate teachers with whom they feel a strong and beneficial connection and who have been willing to teach them as their students. This has never happened to me.

I concede that there are some cameos of the sort of person that should be avoided.

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Not really, that basically sums it up :joy: As I said, “surprising”

From the “strange autobiographical experiences” I learned that for most people “that” teacher won’t just show up. You have to travel and seek them out. Do a lot of retreats. Visit many temples. Really make it a priority. It might / will take years. Be willing to live the kind of non-standard life that that implies.

Exactly! If nothing else, just having some “generalizations” to look out for can be helpful so you know to avoid such people sooner rather than later :slight_smile:

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Oh darn, that really is depressing which probably reveals my unhealthy attachment to my overweight, asthmatic body. Thanks !

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Maybe a slightly different spin on what has already been said…

The mind has its own particular reality, its way of functioning. And different traditions (if genuine) craft a path of spiritual development according to their understanding of how the mind works.

Now let’s assume that tradition x gets closest to the actual description of how the mind works and how to liberate it. That still doesn’t mean that I can operate on this level. Machine code might be the programming closest to the reality of how the computer operates. It doesn’t mean that it’s the most suitable way for everyone to interact with a computer - I might need a different interface.

And so what else can we do other than what people have done for at least 2000 years? We hear or read about a great teacher, get excited, meet them, practice with them, and either find liberation or as in most cases move on to another teacher, and so on. Or until I can stand on my own feet and have internalized enough Dhamma to guide me without a teacher.

But generally, just because someone else got excited or even liberated through a specific teaching or teacher it hardly means that I will too.

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Sounds like Alara Kalama and Udakka Ramaputta! :upside_down_face: Fortunate for us the Buddha took what he learned from them and continued to investigate, examine and purify his mind until he removed all impurities and impediments and was able to see the entire picture! O that I can do the same!

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Don’t forget that there are thousands who also turn their back from Buddhism and go to advaita or tantra or Adyashanti or Tolle or whoever. By no means do all paths lead to Buddhism.

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Right! It’s interesting how when I get involved in exploring writings and practices, teachers and such, the suttas always seem to correct my heading and heighten my dhamma sense to somehow know what is missing the mark. I’m a simple man and perhaps that’s a blessing.

I think that pretty much all “western Buddhists,” myself included, can relate.

I think we all might have navigated and tried to solve this problem in different ways.

I can try to share my perspective in brief:
I initially was drawn to the Theravada sect because I thought it might have conserved the teachings the most, especially relative to the other sects (Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc.)

But as I learned more, I became more aware that even the Theravada sect hasn’t preserved the teachings as well as I thought.

From my current level of mental development so far, I think (and acknowledge that what I think is subject to change depending on what I learn further) that “Early Buddhism” seems to be “the best bet” relative to all the other named tradition, even if it is less of a tradition and more of an approach to learning Buddhism.

Basically, the approach of early Buddhism seems to be to try to examine and evaluate the earliest sources of Buddhism and think critically about what was most likely to have been taught by the Buddha.

I think this is the best approach relative to the rest of the sects because it acknowledges that we may never know 100% of what the Buddha taught with 100% certainty - but it also avoids the skeptical extreme of “we can never know what the Buddha taught at all ever,” which seems to lead us to basically not try to search and look and examine various sources to figure out what the Buddha taught.

I am not aware of any shortcuts to this process right now.

If I could recommend one book for me to read when I first became interested in Buddhism to give me the best possible introduction and overview of sources to look at to learn about Buddhism, I think it would be: The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts Bhikkhu Sujato & Bhikkhu Brahmali

It just so happens that he helped create and participates in this forum, but even if he didn’t, I would still have recommended it to myself back then.

Why? Because it gave me a general sense (not hyper-specific or technical or difficult for a beginner to understand) of what sources are consider early and/or reliable sources of Buddhism - and why consulting early sources is important for those who are interested in learning about Buddhism and what the Buddha actually said.

I would caution myself when I started learning about Buddhism, by telling myself that “all roads lead to the Buddha to different degrees - i.e. all roads are not equal. It seems worth spending the time upfront surveying and researching all the possible roads before making any kind of commitment to them and to figure out what degree of commitment is warranted (because all the sects contain at least part of the Buddha said, I think, like the 4 noble truths and the 8fold path, etc.).”

Like I said, I think relative to all the sects/roads/etc. out there at this time, I think “early Buddhism” seems to be the most accurate, even if it isn’t (and doesn’t claim to be) 100% accurate and certain.

Finally, I am trying to answer this more definitively because I faced (and still face) the same exact problem/quandary/dilemma/etc. that you described in the OP - and I wish more people were able to give me a more definitive answer.

The “tolerant” answer that attempts to be “non-sectarian” in the form of “take the good parts of all the sect” is definitely true and 100% percent right, I think - but it doesn’t exactly solve the problem.

To the contrary, it can be misleading in that it can make it seem like all the sects/traditions/roads/paths are equally true.

Furthermore, I am not left with anymore clarity regarding “what those good and right parts” of each sect are.

Even further, “what resonates with me or my experience” hasn’t always turned out to be right or correct - sometimes things resonated with me that I later found out was not actually correct. Just because something resonated or seemed true, didn’t necessarily mean that they were true or helpful.

I think starting with the The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts Bhikkhu Sujato & Bhikkhu Brahmali would be helpful for beginners - and then following that book up by trying to more directly look at and examine and evaluate the early sources for yourself.

I think if I did this, I might have saved myself a lot of time, and heartache, and worrying and confusion.

It is so easy for those who are already very familiar with the early texts to brush off your quandary and espouse positions like “all paths are right,” “pick what works for you,” “don’t cling to any tradition,” “pick and choose what is helpful,” “pick what resonates with you,” and other such answers that don’t really directly or conclusively solver your dilemma for you.

4 kinds of answers
Conclusive/definitive wrong answer
Inconclusive/vague wrong answer
Inconclusive/vague right answer
Conclusive/definitive right answer

I agree that definitive wrong answers (i.e. dogmatic answers) are harmful and not beneficial.
However, I don’t think that all definitive answers are necessarily unhelpful.

When I first learned about Buddhism, I wish more people were able to give me more definitive (right) answers to this question - at least to whatever degree that they were capable of doing so.

That is why I tried to respond to your OP in this way.

That being said, it is based on my current level of mental development at this time, and so it is limited to that degree.

Ultimately, it is up to you if you wish to “open-mindedly yet critically” consider all the opinions on this matter use the various advices that you get to try and figure it out the answer to your question for yourself.

May you (and we all) figure out the solution to this problem and be happy. :pray: :slightly_smiling_face:

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The answer to your question is going to depend on many things such as which communities are available in your area, what are they like and so on. Therefore it cannot be answered categorically. It only be answered by you. It can be answered by going in person to the buddhist centers in your area, meeting the teachers and people there, listening to what they teach (and comparing it to the suttas) and practicing with them for a bit (and noticing if it leads to peace and letting go). Then you will be in a position to know which sangha is the right fit.

Besides that I would say that all Buddhists should learn a bit about all the main Buddhist traditions (Theravada, Indo Tibetan Buddhism and East Asian Buddhism) so they have a basic foundation on where these communities are coming from. This will allow you to see how they have preserved but also adapted the Buddhasdharma and how they are all unique and valuable traditions. It will also help you to notice when a group is way off the mark. I would also recommend all buddhist seekers to study a bit of the anti cult literature, so they have a basic skill set to identify harmful cultic behavior.

It is my own personal opinion that all these three main traditions are legitimate and one can find authentic dharma in all of them. Even if they are not reading the EBTs, one will find true Buddhadharma in all three. I also don’t think any one of them is particularly more authentic, each one contains innovations and post-early buddhist developments (some more than others of course). The best thing to do is to check out the groups close to you and see where you best fit in.

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And then, … when all is done and the path fades away in the middle of the desert or stops abruptly at the top of a cliff, … be willing to sit down on the nearest stone and turn the search inwards …

And if you mobile phone still has charge there’s still the internet :rofl:

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