Are khandhas early or late EBT?

My question - which was not rhetorical - started with the observation that the khandhas are not in every collection as I would have expected. One of the reasons could be that it was late. I was interested in exploring this option and others as well.

That’s because the khandhas are very broad categories. So it’s not surprising that we find similar items in the Upanisads. And because they are broad we would have to find them as a cluster for such an hypothesis. Or, for example in a list of 20 items in which the order would reveal that structurally they were clustered as the khandhas.

Some details are important here which speak against an upanisadic influence, for example that for the upanisadic Brahman theory prana was just as essential as atman but is not explicitly part of the anatta and khandha discourse in the suttas. I can’t go much into detail, but the more fruitful hunt for correspondences would be in the Brahmanas.

The thing with identification is that you see or question it only from the outside, i.e. from an anatta perspective. From the inside it just looks like self-evident truth. So the Brahmanas for example would just state that ‘seeing’ is a component of humans that partakes in the cosmic totality - they would not frame it as ‘clung to’.

I just don’t get what this is apart from a sectarian appeal to “stop” when it comes to the EBT’s from applying the same kinds of arguments and analyses that are applied to argue that the Mahayana material is later than the Abhidhamma or that the Abbhidhamma is later than the Sutta - snp4.11 mentions a 6 link dependent origination, DN mentions a 10 link dependent origination and SN mentions a 12 link one. these are facts. What is the explanation of this difference if not textual development?

Bodhi says;

These omissions have led some scholars to suggest that the twelvefold formulation may be a later augmentation of a shorter original; but such suggestions remain purely conjectural, misleading, and objectionable on doctrinal and textual grounds. All in all, the omissions of the Sutta are more than compensated for by its detailed explanations, interesting digressions, and supplementary sections. Indeed, it might well be suspected, contrary to the thesis of historical development, that in the present sutta the Buddha has varied the usual exposition expressly to create an opportunity for such special methods of treatment.

But that is literally all he says about the matter, giving no indication whatsoever what the textual grounds for rejecting the theory might be

Mun-keat says;

In other words, the comparative data revealed here do not provide evidence to support the speculative suggestion that there was just one original (or relatively early) account of the series, from which the other attested accounts developed later

But bases his entire statement on a comparison of SN with SA, with no indication that the snp or DN versions are even considered.

Wayman opens with;

Even though sometimes fewer than twelve members occur in the Pali scriptures, I am convinced that the full twelve members have been in Buddhism since earliest times.

And that is ALL HES SAYS about it for the whole article.

The above three authors are what is mentioned in the Wikipedia article about DO under the title “The 12 nidānas as an early list” - there really seems to be NO scholarship that gives any plausible explanation for the fact that snp presents DO differently to DN and SN presents it differently to DN and that the progression is from 6 items to 10 to 12 from snp - DN to SN.

just saying something is “objectionable” or “speculative” doesn’t make it so, and the textual development argument is at least parsimonious with the facts.

Expecting to be able to have a coherent discussion, based on reasoned argument to account for the 3 differing lists should not be expecting “way too much” One explanation is that the 3 different lists come from three different strata, I do not see how this explanation is any more speculative that any number of arguments that are accepted as legitimate in the field. certainly I don’t see how the “different audiences” argument could possibly apply to the 10 vs 12 versions.

Metta

I think one of the fundamental defilements is asmi mana, the conceit ‘I am’. One could also say ‘ego-conceit’.

I think the Buddha must have seen, like SN22.83 suggest, that this ego-conceit occurs because of grasping. By grasping what? The five khandha’s.

The notion “I exist” is linked to experiencing a body and vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana and vice versa. There is a very strong relationship. A strong attachment.

For example, the awareness of a body can disappear from mind; Then fear and panic might arise because the internal scheme "there are bodily feeling so i exist’, is under tension. This is an instinct.

It is like ego-conceit is constantly seeking evidence for it’s existence. And it’s operational mode is: “there are feelings, so “I exist.” “There is body awareness, so I exist”. “There are cravings, so I exist”.
“I exist” because there are emotions”. There are…etc. This is why it is so hard to let go and to really become still.

I think that the Buddha does see how this works and how it plays a role in attachment. Because this is such an important mechanism in the cause of suffering, and such a key-defilement, one might expact that the Buddha did not invent talking about five khandha’s later?

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OK, so I would now also add that SN22.4 quotes from DN21 and refers to it by name.

I am struggling to even read a sutta without uncovering another example! I just wanted to find a sutta that gave definitions of the individual aggregates like a vibhanga type sutta, does anyone know of one?

found it! SN22.56 :slight_smile:

Totally agree. Word counts are rarely meaningful beyond just getting a word count :hugs:. Text analysts always use word frequencies/proportions as far as I know when comparing texts. Conclusions can’t be made other than this being random chance without additional statistical rigour to back it up.

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Wouldn’t it be great to get instead of all the blanket dismissals actual constructive contributions?

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One more for you then @Gabriel DN22 has no parallel in the DA but MN10 has MA98. under principles MA98 gives the six sense bases, the five hindrances and the 7 factors of enlightenment but not the five aggregates.

As I point out above, while DN14 does mention the aggregates as the phenomena that Vipassi is observing when he achieves his enlightenment, this occurs immediatly after a long exposition on DO and then the very next paragraph has;

This principle I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute.
‘adhigato kho myāyaṁ dhammo gambhīro duddaso duranubodho santo paṇīto atakkāvacaro nipuṇo paṇḍitavedanīyo.
But people like attachment, they love it and enjoy it.
Ālayarāmā kho panāyaṁ pajā ālayaratā ālayasammuditā.
It’s hard for them to see this thing; that is, specific conditionality, dependent origination.
Ālayarāmāya kho pana pajāya ālayaratāya ālayasammuditāya duddasaṁ idaṁ ṭhānaṁ yadidaṁ idappa­c­ca­yatā­paṭi­c­ca­samu­p­pādo­.
It’s also hard for them to see this thing; that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.
Idampi kho ṭhānaṁ duddasaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbū­pa­dhi­­paṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ.

So it really does seem strange to me that in the Sutta as we have it 5A are asserted to be the enlightenment practice but then DO are asserted in the next paragraph. One plausible explanation for this would be that a standard formula for enlightenment at the end of the DO sequence was expanded to include 5A and that the subsequent paragraph was left unchanged.

So if the nearest equivalent of DN22 in the agamas omits the 5A and DN14 shows inconsistencies then the ONLY place they occur in DN is the “index” suttas of 33 and 34.

Metta.

Basically, we don’t have an objective way to reason out what’s earlier than something else once we’ve weeded out the Abhidharma, avadanas, and jatakas. It’s personal supposition after that. A person can make all sorts of theories, and it can be really entertaining to engage in it, but it’s based on impressions and biases. One person likes DN and decides it’s the earlier collection. Okay, great. Another person thinks SN is earlier because the texts are all small and simple. Okay, great. How is either idea proven? It’s just speculation. There’s no history that goes back far enough to know with any certainty.

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I certainly don’t think we can be certain :slight_smile:

Having said that there’s always the possibility that a Greek manuscript turns up in a Turkish urn or something giving a first hand account of a visit to India and describing a lengthy personal interview with kottika who can still remember sariputta and the good old days…

I guess I just disagree with your assessment of what’s possible or even likely - and I’m not sure on what basis you can be so confident that the Abhidhamma can be “weeded out” but that a further consensus of opinion about strata can’t emerge down the track with regard to the 4N.

Anyway, I guess time will tell :slight_smile:

I think we may be talking about different things. It’s one thing to trace the development of certain ideas or doctrines and notice they developed. It’s something else to decide whether they existed in the earliest canon or not. I think some ideas can be ruled out because they are rare or not consistent across canons, or we can see them developed in later literature - like the anusayas in Sarvastivada Abhidharma. This is really the main criteria I’ve found that’s reliable and makes sense to me.

Abhidharma is derivative of the early Buddhist teachings. I.e., it’s summarizing and collating existing teachings to make it easier to teach and study them. It may have been a strategy to overcome the size of the canon after it had grown too large for most people to memorize. The earliest Abhidharma is probably pre-writing, so it’s really old. The bulk of it, especially the Sarvastivada Abhidharma, is a later development. Buddhists became philosophical and began developing original theories rather than summarizing standard teachings. And we can find some of these new ideas in the sutras, like the anusayas that replaced the asavas in the Sarvastivada theory of realizing the four noble truths. This found its way into the Theravada suttas like other later ideas from northern India like the thousand-world systems and such.

I can’t say that the five khandhas are definitely from the original teachings of the Buddha. It just seems likely given that they are found in every Buddhist canon, from Theravada to Yogacara. If there was evidence of the five aggregates developing into the form that’s commonly found, I think I’d have more doubt. Instead, we see ideas forming around the five khandhas, like sakkaya, nama-rupa, etc. Khandhas look older to me as a result.

The four noble truths are a little more uncertain to me than the five aggregates, but not that much. This is because the four principles: X, the formation of X, the cessation of X, and the path to the cessation of X can be found applied to other things besides dukkha in suttas. So, then, I have to wonder if someone decided to elevate the formula applied to dukkha as the essential teaching of the Buddha. Or did people decide to use the same formula on other things based on the 4NTs? Either scenario makes sense to me, so I don’t know. SN and AN are full of variations and combinations of themes like that, so it’s not that strange. But every Buddhist tradition is adamant that the four noble truths was the Buddha’s first sermon, so I assume there’s a good reason for that. It must go back quite far if it isn’t original.

There are cases that are more certain to me. One is the ten powers of the Tathagata. I’ve written about it on the forum when I was looking at its parallels a couple years ago. Almost every version of the ten powers is different. But they are different in a consistent way. They all have a core of five powers they agree on, and then add five more powers in different ways. So, it seems that originally it was five powers, but then at some point Buddhists all decided to expand it to ten - in different ways. The way Buddhists are consistently inconsistent can creates an objective basis for a conclusion. It’s just not very often that it’s that clear.

Basically, studying parallels opens up a much wider view of early Buddhism than limiting one’s scope to only Pali sources. But it also shows a convoluted relationship between different early canons. Pali sources often agree with Dharmaguptaka parallels closely, but then they also appear to borrow from Sarvastivada sources. More and more, I view it as somewhat patchwork. There was cross canon sharing taking place at different times, I think.

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Have you by any chance done a distribution for the word kamma? I would be interested in whether or not it mirrors the distribution of the aggregates.

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It does! sort of. words containing the string “kamma” occur in:

DN: 195
MN: 365
SN: 185
AN: 555

So similarly to Jhana, kamma is much less frequent relative to number of suttas in SN than in any of the other Nikayas. Even DN, which only has 34 Suttas mentions kamma related words more than SN.

I feel pretty confident that one could find many many other examples, especially if you weight the begnnnings of DN and MN more than the ends, on the assumption that late additions are more likely to occur towards the ends.

People keep saying on here that word frequency is meaningless but I think when the pattern is that just ONE NIkaya is different and the other 3 show similarity then it is at least suggestive.

It is especially so when the word frequency argument is coupled with a picture of the evolution of the presentation of the doctrine that moved from more “everyday language” teachings towards more formal, numerical teachings, which would neatly explain the word frequencies.

Anyway, I have been coming to realize that this is quite a sensitive issue, so I will just add that this is not methodical research, and I am merely exploring a speculative theory about the order in which the NIkayas where formed, with absolutely no suggestion that the actual ideas behind the teaching changed or that there is secretly a “soul” or some other radical nonsense hiding in “early” Buddhism, just that SN stands intermediate between DN/MN and Abhidhamma

Metta.

Although the word “kamma” by itself, i.e not in a compound occurs only once in the 4N, and it is in SN:

“Giving what’s hard to give,
“Duddadaṁ dadamānānaṁ,

doing what’s hard to do;
dukkaraṁ kamma kubbataṁ;

the wicked don’t act like this,
Asanto nānukubbanti,

for the teaching of the good is hard to follow.
sataṁ dhammo duranvayo.

That’s why the virtuous and the wicked
Tasmā satañca asataṁ,

have different destinations after leaving this place.
nānā hoti ito gati;

The wicked go to hell,
Asanto nirayaṁ yanti,

while the virtuous are bound for heaven.”
santo saggaparāyanā”ti.

SN1.32

Once again, caveats apply; this “research” is performed by me simply pasting the string “kamma” into DPR and seeing what comes out, there is no cross refrencing with other editions of the 4N, searching of related word stems, review of the critical literature on the subject, nothing, nada, zip, so be warned and don’t go round asserting what I say as “facts” because they are miles form being that at this stage. :slight_smile:

So earlier in this thread I did an analysis of the above phrase, finding it absent in DN, then occuring in MN44, MN131, MN132 and MN138.

I noted that MN44 is spoken by Dhammadinna, not the Buddha, and that MN132 the phrase is spoken by Ananada not the Buddha, and MN128 it is spoken by Mahakaccana, not the Buddha.

I then went on to say that

I just wanted to say that as per the suttas quoting suttas thread, this occurrence, in MN131, has no parallel in the Agamas, and is the only version of this poem that is not framed as being revealed by a deva appearing to a monk who then goes to the Buddha for an explanation of it, except the next one which has Ananda giving it as a teaching and the Buddha giving it his imprimatur.

So there is no occurrence of the Buddha saying (except when repeating something another monk has said first in the story) rūpaṁ attato samanupassati, rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ; attani vā rūpaṁ, rūpasmiṁ vā attānaṁ in MN that has a parallel in the Agamas.

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Just to add to your analysis:
The occurrences in the SN are only in SN 22, SN 41.3, and SN 44.8
You missed MN 109 that indeed all about the khandhas.

So do you take this as a central formula regarding the khandhas? What about the other ones?

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Thanks of the catch! you are right, MN109 is entirely about the aggregates. I would note that the Agama parallel is SA58 and not in MA.

As far as central formula go, no I don’t think I have an opinion yet, I have been trying to come up with text strings that might capture all or most of the aggregates passages, even a collection of such strings, but I haven’t got anything definitive yet and I find that I often miss things anyway because digital pali reader will have a comma in some instance where there is no comma in my search string and so until I can work out a fail proof regex method to definitely get all the instances regardless of punctuation or compounds without spaces I would hesitate to say I have an answer.

So for example

rūpaṁ attato samanupassati, rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ turns up the ones I mentioned, but
rūpaṁ attato samanupassati rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ turns up MN109

rūpaṁ niccaṁ vā aniccaṁ vā is another good example of a very common aggregates phrase, again it doesn’t occur in DN, it occurs only 3 times in MN, at MN22, MN35 and MN109, and MN22 is the only one with an Agama parallel in MA, the others being paralleled in SA and EA. It occurs nowhere in AN, nowhere in KN, nowhere in the AB, nowhere in VM, and once in VN.

It occurs 45 times in SN22 and SN24.

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When I was studying the khandhas I made a list of all(?) occurrences of the khandhas in the MN and AN. Here is the list:

MN9
MN22
MN23
MN28
MN35
MN44
MN62
MN64
MN72
MN75
MN102
MN109
MN112
MN122
MN131
MN132
MN138
MN141
MN143
MN147
MN148
MN149
MN151

AN3.133
AN3.62
AN4.124
AN4.126
AN4.181
AN4.196
AN4.200
AN4.254
AN4.41
AN4.90
AN5.30
AN6.63
AN7.96
AN8.2
AN9.36
AN9.66
AN10.27
AN10.60
AN10.81
AN10.92

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Awesome! Thanks for that, it’s really helpful! Is there any methodology or did you just read them thru and note when there where references hat included lists of form, feelings etc?

I think I used different searches, mainly if there occurred some form of the word rupa, some form of the word vedana, etc. [rūpa*+vedan*+saññ*] in DPR you can then see in which context they occur and more or less tell if it is in relation to the khandhas.

And also just the word ‘khandha’ in different forms.

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