Bhante, is DN14 an Early Buddhist Text? The 32 marks of the great man is quite unbelievable, so are the 16 rules of the being intending on awakening. I think 16 rules are also mentioned in MN123 for the current Buddha. The 16 rules seem kind of very flowery in its description and resemble Mahayana sutras. We also find the story of the 4 sights (old man, sick man, dead man and the renunciant) occurred to Buddha Vipassi. I thought the story of the 4 sights was made up.
Thank you for post. I was not aware this story existed in the EBTs. AN 3.39 offers a different sounding story for Gotama.
Yes @WayChuang DN14 is an EBT, more or less by definition, the 4 principle Nikayas are universally regarded as “early”.
material being “unbelievable” or “flowery” is not in itself any indication of age, there is a lot of flowery and unbelievable material in the Vedas and they are even older than the EBT’s.
Many people do however think that there is a noticeable change of “tone” between the Sīlakkhandhavagga, the first division of DN and the Mahavagga, the second division, and there is the feeling that this material is later relative to what comes before it.
As far as I am aware there is no scholarly work that asserts that any part of DN is significantly later than the rest of the material in the 4 principle Nikayas, and certainly no suggestion that any DN sutta originates in the period of the production of the Mahayana literature.
(although there is the idea that some of DN, especially the Mahāparinibbānasutta remained open to additions and changes till quite late, tho probably no later than the closing of AN and still presumably closed before the Abhidhamma/Mahayana period either side of the beginning of the common era)
I guess people where just flowery and unbelievable back then too.
Metta.
Thanks for the thorough reply. I guess that sort of answer my question. I have not studied Digha Nikaya systematically. Your comment on the change of tone between Silakkhandhavagga and Mahavagga will be helpful when I come across those suttas. 
AN3.39 is so similar to the story of Yasa as found in the Vinaya Pitaka (See section 7 The account of the going forth). And the story of Yasa is so similar to the story found in the Lalitavistara Sutra where the Bodhisattva was repulsed by the sight of tired female attendants drolling, etc in their sleep. The Bodhisattva then snuck out of palace, just as Yasa snuck out of his dwelling. I suppose Lalitavistara Sutra was inspired by the story of Yasa.
I have a problem with some of their statements
“There is no need to take this literally in order to realize that a period is implied”
"However, it must be at least 90,000 years, this being the sum of the ages of the first three Buddhas of the current eon, but is certainly many multiples of that. "
The Buddha Kassapa must be certainly more than at least 576 millions a part from the Buddha Gotama time. Why is that? Because in MN 81 the Ghatikkara Sutta the Buddha was still a disciple of the Buddha Kassapa. And it must be that the bodhisatta fulfill his lifespan on Tusita realm and then mindfully descent into the mother womb, according to MN 123 the Achariyaabhuta Sutta, which takes at least 576 millions years, according to the AN 3.70 the Uposattha Sutta.
Another thing that annoys me is that the mixed use of Pali and Sanskrit, quite unprofessional
Yes, but of course, the scope of the EBTs covers a fairly wide range. In one sense they are all “early” (compared to later texts), but they obviously don’t all stem from the time of the Buddha. In the case of DN 14, I haven’t really studied the dating in depth.
Coincidentally, I started reading DN 14 for the first time a few days ago before this thread reappeared.
It reminded me of the story in the reboot of Battlestar Galactica and the lament of the humanoid Cylons “that all this happened before and all this will happen again”.
I noticed that the lives of past Buddhas were remarkably similar, with only names, particular people, and some places changing.
The other big thing that I noticed was that ancient people living tremendously longer lives than more modern ones. A similar downward gradient exists in the Old Testament. Probably just a coincidence.
I was disappointed that the Buddha needed “deities” (flawed beings, not immortal, of limited power ) who the previous Buddhas helped liberate to tell the Buddha of their existence. I guess you only get memories of your own past lives.
The description of what happens to the mothers of Buddhas reminded me of Mary a bit, but I am not that familiar with Christianity.
I have noticed that in a lot of suttas there is a strange “hedging” about theses things, in that the Buddha and other awakened figures will often be asked how they know a thing by supernatural means and they almost always answer that they did so by psychic powers AND the spirits told them.
It’s sort of somehow vaguely suggestive to me, but I can never quite put my figure on what exactly it is suggestive of.
Metta.
Even though DN/DA is part of the four principle Nikayas/Agamas, Ven. Yin Shun in his findings suggests that DN/DA was developed and expanded from the Geya (祇夜) anga portion of SN/SA.
Having checked on the DN/DA texts (e.g. DN 14 = DA 1), I can see the connection between Geya-anga portion of SN/SA and DN/DA texts.
For another very erudite and fascinating take on the question of chronology I am currently reading “Studies in the origins of Buddhism” by Govind Chandra Pande, this work appears to be freely available at A Handful of Leaves - Library if you want to avail yourself of it.
It appears to take the view that this sutta is somewhat later in style than the preceding suttas of DN, and notes (as I have noted elsewhere and was pleased to see confirmed by a source so learned) that the five aggregates are clearly inserted into this sutta breaking the sense and coherence of the narrative.
Metta
I don’t think that people at the time would have seen it as hedging. Rather, that not only could the Buddha see these things, but that gods were also in the habit of talking to him and reporting the same thing. There are a few suttas where gods come and discuss things with eminent lay disciples, and this is considered one of their amazing and astounding qualities.
Just another perspective.
The same aggregates teaching is found in a number of suttas, here: SuttaCentral. SN 22.89, SN 35.154, MN 122, DN 14, DN 33, DN 34, AN 4.41, AN 4.90, AN 5.30, AN 8.2.
the point is that where the teaching is inserted into this sutta it breaks the sense of the discourse, causing it to become incoherent, the relevant section is here:
Then Vipassī thought,
Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa etadahosi:
‘I have discovered the path to awakening. That is:
‘adhigato kho myāyaṁ maggo sambodhāya yadidaṁ—
When name and form cease, consciousness ceases. When consciousness ceases, name and form cease. When name and form cease, the six sense fields cease. When the six sense fields cease, contact ceases. When contact ceases, feeling ceases. When feeling ceases, craving ceases. When craving ceases, grasping ceases. When grasping ceases, continued existence ceases. When continued existence ceases, rebirth ceases. When rebirth ceases, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress cease.
nāmarūpanirodhā viññāṇanirodho, viññāṇanirodhā nāmarūpanirodho, nāmarūpanirodhā saḷāyatananirodho, saḷāyatananirodhā phassanirodho, phassanirodhā vedanānirodho, vedanānirodhā taṇhānirodho, taṇhānirodhā upādānanirodho, upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho, bhavanirodhā jātinirodho, jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti.
That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.’
Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti’.‘Cessation, cessation.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in Vipassī, the one intent on awakening, regarding teachings not learned before from another.
‘Nirodho nirodho’ti kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṁ udapādi, ñāṇaṁ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi.Some time later Vipassī meditated observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates.
Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassī bodhisatto aparena samayena pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassī vihāsi:
‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
‘iti rūpaṁ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;
Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling.
iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;
Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.
iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;
Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices.
iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṁ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṁ atthaṅgamo;
Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’
iti viññāṇaṁ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti,
Meditating like this his mind was soon freed from defilements by not grasping.
tassa pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassino viharato na cirasseva anupādāya āsavehi cittaṁ vimuccīti.Dutiyabhāṇavāro.
- The Appeal of Brahmā
- Brahmayācanakathā
Then the Blessed One Vipassī, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha, thought,
Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bhagavato arahato sammāsambuddhassa etadahosi:
‘Why don’t I teach the Dhamma?’
‘yannūnāhaṁ dhammaṁ deseyyan’ti.Then he thought,
Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bhagavato arahato sammāsambuddhassa etadahosi:
‘This principle I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute.
‘adhigato kho myāyaṁ dhammo gambhīro duddaso duranubodho santo paṇīto atakkāvacaro nipuṇo paṇḍitavedanīyo.
But people like attachment, they love it and enjoy it.
Ālayarāmā kho panāyaṁ pajā ālayaratā ālayasammuditā.
It’s hard for them to see this thing; that is, specific conditionality, dependent origination.
Ālayarāmāya kho pana pajāya ālayaratāya ālayasammuditāya duddasaṁ idaṁ ṭhānaṁ yadidaṁ idappaccayatāpaṭiccasamuppādo.
It’s also hard for them to see this thing; that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.
Idampi kho ṭhānaṁ duddasaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ.
And if I were to teach the Dhamma, others might not understand me, which would be wearying and troublesome for me.’
Ahañceva kho pana dhammaṁ deseyyaṁ, pare ca me na ājāneyyuṁ; so mamassa kilamatho, sā mamassa vihesā’ti.
So you can se that Vipassi achieves enlightenment in the usual way, via the discovery of dependant origination, then the insertion says that “some time later” blah blah blah aggregates, then Vipassi says “this thing” dependant origination.
so there is a clear rupture in the text that makes it break down, “this thing” should be the 5 aggregates if it is referring to the preceding paragraph, but “this thing” is DO, the paragraph before the insertion.
Metta
In the suttas, realization of the noble truths/dependent origination (SN 56.11; SN 12.10) is often the breakthrough to stream-entry; where as realisation of the impermanence of the aggregates is often arahantship (SN 22.59); particularly for disciples. The narrative in DN 14 about discovery of dependent origination is exactly the same as in SN 12.10, which makes no claims to full enlightenment. Therefore, it seems the possible inconsistency in DN 14 is, from recollection, most suttas about Gotama’s full enlightenment only refer to the Four Noble Truths.
sure but the four noble truths are just a different way of saying dependant origination. suffering, its arising, its ceasing and the path is dependant origination.
Yes but in DN 14 dependent origination is only a “breakthrough” realization and not the ending of the asava. Where as the enlightenment accounts of Gotama say:
When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the destruction of the taints. I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ I directly knew as it actually is: ‘These are the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of the taints (asava)’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of the taints (asava)’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints.’
“When I knew and saw thus, my mind was liberated from the taint (asava) of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it was liberated, there came the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ I directly knew: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’
MN 4
In summary, in DN 14, the aggregates rise & fall ends the asava. DN 14 says:
Meditating like this his mind was soon freed from defilements (asava) by not grasping.
tassa pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassino viharato na cirasseva anupādāya āsavehi cittaṁ vimuccīti.
this is i think what we disagree about. the breakthrough referred to in the third paragraph, that Vipassa calls “this thing” (the thing that constitutes his enlightenment) is dependant origination.
‘This principle I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute.
But people like attachment, they love it and enjoy it.
It’s hard for them to see this thing; that is, specific conditionality, dependent origination.
This means that the previous paragraph, about the aggregates, is an insertion by a later editor.
The breakthrough is:
- Vipassī’s Reflections
- Bodhisattaabhinivesa
Then as Vipassī, the one intent on awakening, was in private retreat this thought came to his mind,Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa vāsūpagatassa rahogatassa paṭisallīnassa evaṁ cetaso parivitakko udapādi:
‘Alas, this world has fallen into trouble. It’s born, grows old, dies, passes away, and is reborn, yet it doesn’t understand how to escape from this suffering, from old age and death.
‘kicchaṁ vatāyaṁ loko āpanno, jāyati ca jīyati ca mīyati ca cavati ca upapajjati ca, atha ca panimassa dukkhassa nissaraṇaṁ nappajānāti jarāmaraṇassa,
Oh, when will an escape be found from this suffering, from old age and death?’
kudāssu nāma imassa dukkhassa nissaraṇaṁ paññāyissati jarāmaraṇassā’ti?
The reply to The Appeal of Brahmā is what you quoted:
- Brahmayācanakathā
Then the Blessed One Vipassī, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha, thought,
Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bhagavato arahato sammāsambuddhassa etadahosi:
‘Why don’t I teach the Dhamma?’
‘yannūnāhaṁ dhammaṁ deseyyan’ti.
Then he thought,
Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bhagavato arahato sammāsambuddhassa etadahosi:
‘This principle I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute.
‘adhigato kho myāyaṁ dhammo gambhīro duddaso duranubodho santo paṇīto atakkāvacaro nipuṇo paṇḍitavedanīyo.
But people like attachment, they love it and enjoy it.
Ālayarāmā kho panāyaṁ pajā ālayaratā ālayasammuditā.
It’s hard for them to see this thing; that is, specific conditionality, dependent origination.
Ālayarāmāya kho pana pajāya ālayaratāya ālayasammuditāya duddasaṁ idaṁ ṭhānaṁ yadidaṁ idappaccayatāpaṭiccasamuppādo.