I am researching sabbe dhammā anattā

I am trying to read the SN44.10 parallel SA961, can someone more knowledgeable than me confirm that the parallel lacks the phrase “all phenomena are not self”? @cdpatton I have to admit I am hoping to hear from you :slight_smile:

A few notes form my research:

@sujato says “This phrase occurs as part of a frequently repeated set of statements, often in verse”

however,

In the four principal nikayas sabbe dhammā anattā appears in exactly four suttas:

in MN35 (the Chinese parallel SA110 omits the phrase)
in SN22.90 (the parallel SA262 includes the phrase)
in SN44.10 (SA961 omits the phrase, SA-2 195 includes it) and
in AN3.136 (has no Chinese parallels?)

turning to the 5th nikaya:

It appears once more in the Dhammapada, (in the Maggavagga), and once in the Theragatha, in an identical verse to the Dhammapada.

moving on to the other baskets of the tripitaka:

The statement is not found in the Vinaya.

It is mentioned twice in the Abhidhamma, both times in the Kathāvatthu, once as a quote of the sentence by itself and once as a quote of the Dhammapada poem.

SO as far as I can tell it occurs in exactly 1 verse, and in exactly one sutta where the known parallels all include the phrase.

It then occurs 27 times in the Niddesa, twice in the Paṭisambhidāmagga, three times in the Netti and 3 times in the Peṭakopadesa.

So in total we have 47 occurances, 35 of which occur in late material not accepted as canonical outside of the Theravada (27 in Nidessa, 2 in Paṭisambhidāmagga, 3 in Netti, 3 in Petakopadesa)

Of the remaining 12, 3 are the same verse (once in Dhammapada, once in Theragatha, and once in Kathāvatthu)

of the remaining 9, 1 is a quotation from the Suttas of the line by itself in the Kathāvatthu:

“sabbe dhammā anattāti”

This leaves us with the 8 occurrences in 4 suttas, and for 3 of those 4 suttas we have parallels omitting the phrase.

So the idea that this is a “frequently repeated phrase” is as far as I can tell, simply not true of the EBT’s.

FOr comparison the phrase

“paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ”
(the first jhana)

Occurs 268 times. ( for e.g at DN2), it occurs in all 5 Nikayas, in the Vinaya, in the Abhidamma, and in the Vissidhumagga.

As for the title given to this phrase when conjoined with the other two, it is refered to as the 3 marks of existence or “tilakkhaṇa”

this word does not occur in V, or in DN, or in MN, or in SN, or in AN, or in the Abhidhamma, or in the Dhammapada, it occurs in the Vissudhimagga 43 times.

On AN3.136;

The phrase dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā occurs a total of 7 times in the canon, here, twice in SN, and 4 times in the Abhidhamma. In all the other 6 cases, plus in its only occurrence in the Vissidhumagga, it refers to paṭiccasamuppāda, not sabbe dhammā anattā.

Finally, the key sutta, SN22.90, the sutta where the SA parallel also uses the phrase, is VERY INTERESTING! Because the whole sutta is about Channa hearing “sabbe dhammā anattā” and feeling kind of ‘weird’ about it! He then goes to Ananda, and guess what!? Ananda reports to Channa what the Buddha told Vacchagotta, reinforcing that “The self does not exist” is an extreme, wrong view!

At one time several senior mendicants were staying near Benares, in the deer park at Isipatana. Ekaṁ samayaṁ sambahulā therā bhikkhū bārāṇasiyaṁ viharanti isipatane migadāye.

Then in the late afternoon, Venerable Channa came out of retreat. Taking a key, he went from dwelling to dwelling, going up to the senior mendicants and saying, Atha kho āyasmā channo sāyanhasamayaṁ paṭisallānā vuṭṭhito avāpuraṇaṁ ādāya vihārena vihāraṁ upasaṅkamitvā there bhikkhū etadavoca: Variant: avāpuraṇaṁ → apāpuraṇaṁ (bj, sya-all, km); avāpuranaṁ (pts1ed) “May the venerable senior mendicants advise me and instruct me! May they give me a Dhamma talk so that I can see the teaching!” “ovadantu maṁ āyasmanto therā, anusāsantu maṁ āyasmanto therā, karontu me āyasmanto therā dhammiṁ kathaṁ, yathāhaṁ dhammaṁ passeyyan”ti.

When he said this, the senior mendicants said to Venerable Channa: Evaṁ vutte, therā bhikkhū āyasmantaṁ channaṁ etadavocuṁ:

“Reverend Channa, form, “rūpaṁ kho, āvuso channa, aniccaṁ; feeling, vedanā aniccā; perception, saññā aniccā; choices, saṅkhārā aniccā; and consciousness are impermanent. viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ. Form, Rūpaṁ anattā; feeling, vedanā … perception, saññā … choices, saṅkhārā … and consciousness are not-self. viññāṇaṁ anattā. All conditions are impermanent. Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā; All things are not-self.” sabbe dhammā anattā”ti.

Then Venerable Channa thought, Atha kho āyasmato channassa etadahosi: “I too think in this way. … “mayhampi kho etaṁ evaṁ hoti: Variant: mayhampi kho etaṁ evaṁ → mayhaṁpi kho evaṁ (sya-all, km) ‘rūpaṁ aniccaṁ, vedanā … saññā … saṅkhārā … viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ; rūpaṁ anattā, vedanā … saññā … saṅkhārā … viññāṇaṁ anattā. Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā, sabbe dhammā anattā’ti. And yet my mind isn’t eager, confident, settled, and decided about the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment. Atha ca pana me sabbasaṅkhārasamathe sabbūpadhipaṭinissagge taṇhākkhaye virāge nirodhe nibbāne cittaṁ na pakkhandati nappasīdati na santiṭṭhati nādhimuccati. Anxiety and grasping arise. Paritassanā upādānaṁ uppajjati; And the mind reverts to thinking: paccudāvattati mānasaṁ: ‘So then who exactly is my self?’ ‘atha ko carahi me attā’ti? But that doesn’t happen for someone who sees the teaching. Na kho panevaṁ dhammaṁ passato hoti. Who can teach me the Dhamma so that I can see the teaching?” Ko nu kho me tathā dhammaṁ deseyya yathāhaṁ dhammaṁ passeyyan”ti.

Then Venerable Channa thought, Atha kho āyasmato channassa etadahosi: “The Venerable Ānanda is staying near Kosambi, in Ghosita’s Monastery. He’s praised by the Buddha and esteemed by his sensible spiritual companions. He’s quite capable of teaching me the Dhamma so that I can see the teaching. “ayaṁ kho āyasmā ānando kosambiyaṁ viharati ghositārāme satthu ceva saṁvaṇṇito sambhāvito ca viññūnaṁ sabrahmacārīnaṁ, pahoti ca me āyasmā ānando tathā dhammaṁ desetuṁ yathāhaṁ dhammaṁ passeyyaṁ; Since I have so much trust in Venerable Ānanda, atthi ca me āyasmante ānande tāvatikā vissaṭṭhi. Variant: vissaṭṭhi → visaṭṭhi (pts1ed); vissatthi (?) why don’t I go to see him?” Yannūnāhaṁ yenāyasmā ānando tenupasaṅkameyyan”ti.

Then Channa set his lodgings in order and, taking his bowl and robe, set out for Kosambi. He went to see Ānanda in Ghosita’s Monastery, exchanged greetings with him, and told him what had happened. Then he said, Atha kho āyasmā channo senāsanaṁ saṁsāmetvā pattacīvaramādāya yena kosambī ghositārāmo yenāyasmā ānando tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmatā ānandena saddhiṁ sammodi …pe… ekamantaṁ nisinno kho āyasmā channo āyasmantaṁ ānandaṁ etadavoca:

“Ekamidāhaṁ, āvuso ānanda, samayaṁ bārāṇasiyaṁ viharāmi isipatane migadāye. Atha khvāhaṁ, āvuso, sāyanhasamayaṁ paṭisallānā vuṭṭhito avāpuraṇaṁ ādāya vihārena vihāraṁ upasaṅkamiṁ; upasaṅkamitvā there bhikkhū etadavocaṁ: ‘ovadantu maṁ āyasmanto therā, anusāsantu maṁ āyasmanto therā, karontu me āyasmanto therā dhammiṁ kathaṁ yathāhaṁ dhammaṁ passeyyan’ti. Evaṁ vutte, maṁ, āvuso, therā bhikkhū etadavocuṁ: ‘rūpaṁ kho, āvuso channa, aniccaṁ; vedanā … saññā … saṅkhārā … viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ; rūpaṁ anattā …pe… viññāṇaṁ anattā. Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā, sabbe dhammā anattā’ti.

Tassa mayhaṁ, āvuso, etadahosi: ‘mayhampi kho etaṁ evaṁ hoti— rūpaṁ aniccaṁ …pe… viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ, rūpaṁ anattā, vedanā … saññā … saṅkhārā … viññāṇaṁ anattā. Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā, sabbe dhammā anattā’ti. Atha ca pana me sabbasaṅkhārasamathe sabbūpadhipaṭinissagge taṇhākkhaye virāge nirodhe nibbāne cittaṁ na pakkhandati nappasīdati na santiṭṭhati nādhimuccati. Paritassanā upādānaṁ uppajjati; paccudāvattati mānasaṁ: ‘atha ko carahi me attā’ti? Na kho panevaṁ dhammaṁ passato hoti. Ko nu kho me tathā dhammaṁ deseyya yathāhaṁ dhammaṁ passeyyanti.

Tassa mayhaṁ, āvuso, etadahosi: ‘ayaṁ kho āyasmā ānando kosambiyaṁ viharati ghositārāme satthu ceva saṁvaṇṇito sambhāvito ca viññūnaṁ sabrahmacārīnaṁ, pahoti ca me āyasmā ānando tathā dhammaṁ desetuṁ yathāhaṁ dhammaṁ passeyyaṁ. Atthi ca me āyasmante ānande tāvatikā vissaṭṭhi. Yannūnāhaṁ yenāyasmā ānando tenupasaṅkameyyan’ti. “May Venerable Ānanda advise me and instruct me! May he give me a Dhamma talk so that I can see the teaching!” Ovadatu maṁ, āyasmā ānando; anusāsatu maṁ, āyasmā ānando; karotu me, āyasmā ānando dhammiṁ kathaṁ yathāhaṁ dhammaṁ passeyyan”ti.

“I’m already delighted with Venerable Channa. Hopefully you’ve opened yourself up and cut through your emotional barrenness. “Ettakenapi mayaṁ āyasmato channassa attamanā api nāma taṁ āyasmā channo āvi akāsi khīlaṁ chindi. Variant: taṁ → taṁ (bj, sya-all, km) | chindi → pabhindi (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed) Listen well, Channa. Odahāvuso channa, sotaṁ; You are capable of understanding the teaching.” bhabbosi dhammaṁ viññātun”ti. Variant: bhabbosi → bhabbo tvaṁ (mr)

Then right away Channa was filled with lofty rapture and joy, Atha kho āyasmato channassa tāvatakeneva uḷāraṁ pītipāmojjaṁ uppajji: Variant: tāvatakeneva → tāvadeva (bj) “It seems I’m capable of understanding the teaching!” “bhabbo kirasmi dhammaṁ viññātun”ti.

“Reverend Channa, I heard and learned in the presence of the Buddha his advice to the mendicant Kaccānagotta: “Sammukhā metaṁ, āvuso channa, bhagavato sutaṁ, sammukhā paṭiggahitaṁ kaccānagottaṁ bhikkhuṁ ovadantassa—

‘Kaccāna, this world mostly relies on the dual notions of existence and non-existence. dvayanissito khvāyaṁ, kaccāna, loko yebhuyyena atthitañceva natthitañca.

But when you truly see the origin of the world with right understanding, you won’t have the notion of non-existence regarding the world. Lokasamudayaṁ kho, kaccāna, yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passato yā loke natthitā, sā na hoti. And when you truly see the cessation of the world with right understanding, you won’t have the notion of existence regarding the world. Lokanirodhaṁ kho, kaccāna, yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passato yā loke atthitā, sā na hoti.

The world is for the most part shackled by attraction, grasping, and insisting. Upayupādānābhinivesavinibandho khvāyaṁ, kaccāna, loko yebhuyyena

But if—when it comes to this attraction, grasping, mental fixation, insistence, and underlying tendency—you don’t get attracted, grasp, and commit to the notion “my self”, taṁ cāyaṁ upayupādānaṁ cetaso adhiṭṭhānābhinivesānusayaṁ na upeti na upādiyati nādhiṭṭhāti ‘attā me’ti. you’ll have no doubt or uncertainty that what arises is just suffering arising, and what ceases is just suffering ceasing. Dukkhameva uppajjamānaṁ uppajjati, dukkhaṁ nirujjhamānaṁ nirujjhatīti na kaṅkhati na vicikicchati. Your knowledge about this is independent of others. Aparappaccayā ñāṇamevassa ettha hoti.

This is how right view is defined. Ettāvatā kho, kaccāna, sammādiṭṭhi hoti.

“All exists”: this is one extreme. Sabbamatthīti kho, kaccāna, ayameko anto.

“All doesn’t exist”: this is the second extreme. Sabbaṁ natthīti ayaṁ dutiyo anto.

Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One teaches by the middle way: Ete te, kaccāna, ubho ante anupagamma majjhena tathāgato dhammaṁ deseti—

“Ignorance is a condition for choices. avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā; Choices are a condition for consciousness. … saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ …pe… That is how this entire mass of suffering originates. evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.

When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease. … Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā saṅkhāranirodho …pe… That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.”’”
evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī”ti.

“Reverend Ānanda, this is how it is when you have such venerables as spiritual companions to advise and instruct you out of kindness and compassion. “Evametaṁ, āvuso ānanda, hoti yesaṁ āyasmantānaṁ tādisā sabrahmacārayo anukampakā atthakāmā ovādakā anusāsakā. And now that I’ve heard this teaching from Venerable Ānanda, I’ve comprehended the teaching.” Idañca pana me āyasmato ānandassa dhammadesanaṁ sutvā dhammo abhisamito”ti.

So, what is your conclusion about the phrase “sabbe dhammā anattā” in terms of how many times presented in the texts?

Basically my conclusion is that it was a rarely attested phrase that is problematic, and recognized as problematic even in the suttas because it could easily be misinterpreted as an endorsement of the wrong view “the self does not exist”

So, how many times in EBTs are needed for endorsing that all dhammas are empty of self?

268 times would be nice :slight_smile:

Good numbers indeed. Good on you!

May I suggest that we should not joke when we want others to consider our ideas seriously?

You can suggest whatever you like. 268 times is the number of times the first jhana formula is stated in the 4 principle Nikayas, that is 268 vs 8.

If we want to compare the whole tripitaka plus the Vissudhimagga then we get

sabbe dhammā anattā = 47
paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ = 620

I think that this suggests that jhana is a more fundemental and important concept to Buddhism than sabbe dhammā anattā.

I also think that the fact that the vast majority of the occurrences of sabbe dhammā anattā happen in later works not considered canonical by anyone other than the Theravada is suggestive.

Ah so you confirm that you seriously require such a number to match your standard. Ok I understand your seriousness now.

Maybe someone else (not me) who agrees with your standard will further engage with you on this journey.

“Further engage”? You just said I shouldn’t tell jokes. That’s the entire extent of your “engagement” with this thread.

It seems the author of Vissudhimagga likes the 1st jhana more than ‘sabbe dhamma anatta’!

Isn’t it interesting that Anatta is the topic of the second sermon the Buddha gave? If anatta was as important as the later texts seem to indicate, you would think it would have been in the first. I think in reality Anatta was written into the canon later when Buddhists came into contact with Brahmans and their notion of an eternal Atman. Prior to contact with Brahmans and their belief in Atman, the Buddha was interested in undermining our sense of worldly existence. Your counts give some support to that.

Do you see a correlation between texts that mention anatta and nibanna? Nibanna as cessation of consciousness would seem to be a dig at Brahmans who thought the path ended at Atman or pure consciousness.

The extreme wrong view in SN 44.10 is ‘natthattā’, which SN 44.10 calls a ‘view of annihilationists’ (ucchedavādā).

The extreme wrong view in SN 22.90 (and SN 12.15) is ‘natthita’, which MN 60 calls a view of nihilism (natthikavādo).

Neither of these extreme wrong views are about anatta.

In SN 44.10, Vacchagotta (not the Buddha) proposed the view of ‘natthattā’, which is summed up as follows: “the self that I once had no longer exists”. This is a befuddled view, which is why the Buddha said Vacchagotta was “confused”.

The view of anatta is a ‘self’ never ever existed, even when pre-enlightenment ignorance believed a ‘self’ existed. This is made clear in SuttaCentral SN 22 . 79. :dizzy:

Google translate says: “If I say that there is me [self] first, it will be destroyed now” This is an annihilationist view, per DN 1 or Iti 49; which is the view an existing self will be destroyed. Google translate also says: "it is the occurrence of the incident. , sorrow, lamentation, affliction, suffering ". The 1st noble truth summarises suffering as attachment to the five aggregates. The suttas define four types of attachment, which include the doctrine of self. SN 22.1 is explicitly clear attaching to the aggregates as “I”, “me” & “mine” results in suffering when the aggregates change. While none of these teachings use the word “anatta”, obviously they are saying when attachment to the aggregates as “self” ceases, suffering ceases. In other words, SN 56.11 says the realisation of its principles ends suffering. Similarly, SN 22.59 says the realisations of its principles results in dispassion (cessation of craving) and Nibbana. In other words, the principles of SN 56.11 & SN 22.59 seems exactly the same, despite SN 22.59 offering a more comprehensive or effective way to end craving. Both SN 56.11 & SN 22.59 point to self-view as suffering and the giving up of self-view as bringing the experience of Nibbana.

The above never occurs in the suttas; apart from in the title of SN 22.59. This would indicate the sutta content is not from the same time period as the sutta title.

The suttas frequently say dhammas are not-self and never ever say any dhamma is self. Just because the phrase: “sabbe dhamma anatta” is rarely found does not mean the teaching of not-self is rare in the suttas.

What about in DN 9? While the sutta seems to conclude the Buddha teaches the Four Noble Truths, it seems dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā is used to reject doctrines of Eternalism in DN 9.

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In this setting, I always assume that this was the period after Buddha parinibbana.
All sutta with this setting always have monks and nuns to think about Ananda as someone to ask. (Because the Buddha has gone forever)

So that give us the time period. The phrase has existed even before, and important enough that there is explanation to avoid misunderstanding.

Why? What indicates this? Ananda was the Buddha’s attendant therefore most likely was always a source of the Buddha’s teachings.