John Kelly Pali course 2024: Warder lesson 22b

Thread for discussing chapter 22 of Warder for the class on February 13th 2024.

Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca

This is scheduled to be the final meeting of the class on AK Warder Introduction to Pali taught first by Bhante Sujato and continued with John Kelly.

Homework (final assignment!):

  1. Complete the translation of Lesson 22, Passage for Reading down to the bottom of p.196.
  2. Make your own translation of, and do your best to understand the underlying grammar for:
    a) last 3 verses of Maṅgala Sutta
    b) first 2 verses of Dhammapada

Reminder about Dana


Just in case I forget to give my thanks in this class, I would like to take the opportunity to thank the teachers @sujato and @johnk, as well as all the students.

I have really enjoyed learning from the teachers as well as the other students. If I look back six months ago, I did not know any Pali, and was honestly doubtful that I could master the language, and did not think I would ever be good enough to be able to read the suttas.

It is truly a rare and precious gift, to be able to read the Buddha’s words in the language they have been preserved in, and I thank everyone for being given this opportunity to learn.

I wish everyone well and I am sure they will put their knowledge to great use. As for me, the last few months have been an incredible journey not only in learning a new language, but putting it to use in understanding the teachings of the Buddha, and I hope to continue this journey in the future.


A post was merged into an existing topic: Who Wants to Learn Pāli? - take 2

Because I had the time today to explore the etymology/roots for this Lesson 22 passage and I was curious (this language is hauntingly beautiful to me … thanks @Karuna_Hong for the inspiration on root study):

gambhīrā is the name of a river in India that may be the source for the pāli meaning here – there is no sanskrit root other than the full name of the river.

paṇītā is rooted to , meaning to lead or carry. I wonder whether there’s a sense of carrying a flavor forward in the palette, as the sublime meaning (in English) may infer the sublime deliciousness of food(?).

atakkāvacarā is a bahubbīhi compound where, according to DPD, the frequency is quite low in the suttas, as is the case for the words avacara and takka (although takka appears much more in the commentaries per DPD). This was curious to me.

nipuṇā is rooted to puṇ thus conveying a sense of subtlety related to skillfulness or piety.

This little digression helped reinforce the meanings of those particular terms.

Unless I’m off-track! John or Stephen (or anyone else), please correct me as needed :heart_eyes: .


Okay. How to parse manveti in Dhp1/2?

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This is from the Dhammpada Verses we were asked to translate:
Question 1
Are manopubbaṅgamā & manoseṭṭhā bahubbīhi compounds?

Question 2
Tato naṁ dukkhamanveti
Suffering follows him

Bhante Sujato translates this as “suffering follows you?”
Also what is the role of the tato? Is just left out in the translation which if it were more literal would be:
From that (referring to speaking and acting from an unwholesome mind) suffering follows him


There’s no manveti, Bhante.It’s dukkhaṃ in sandhi with anveti, and the nasal is assimilated to become labial m.


Yes, Ayya, I believe they are since they form adjectives describing dhammā.

Also what is the role of the tato?

Again, yes, tato could be translated as ‘from that, therefore, or then’, and in this case the translator chose to just leave it out.


My only grammatical question for

is how can maṅgalamuttamaṃ be a noun when the two components are both adjectives? I don’t recall any of John’s explanations accounting for two adjectives which, when combined = a noun (compound).

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Adjectives in Pāli can be nouns. Like “Buddha” = “awakened [one]”


Ah! Thank you Ven. Khemarato!

Also I actually have this additional question (oops - so much for consolidation):

phuṭṭhassa – how can this be un-touched when it is spelled as if it is touched?


You’re right, Beth, it is touched not untouched. We’ll go through this all in this evening’s class.


Maṅgala can be a noun, as well. In fact, I translate it that way throughout my version of this sutta.


How do you parse this word? I find maṅgala in dictionaries, but not the second part.

Also, how do you translate the titles of the two first Dhammapada verses cakkhupālattheravatthu and maṭṭhakuṇḍalīvatthu? I tried reason of the old ones to protect the eyes and reason for clean energy, although for this one I must admit I didn’t rely on any Pāli dictionary, but the modern Kundalini yoga. I found kuṇḍalī as wearing earrings in a Pāli dictionary, which doesn’t seem to make sense in this context.


Hi Frank,

First off, the titles are not important at all - they were added later and only added in some editions of the canon and not in others.

Second, I can’t read your attempted translations at all. On my screen the text comes through as ghostly unreadable images! ???


Sorry for that John, I have blurred them as spoilers. If you click the blurry image, it will show.

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What is a spoiler??


I meant the translations that I’ve blurred out above. They are not real spoilers, these are very old words :sweat_smile: Just thought I’d blur them so that people who want to translate the Pāli don’t get influenced by me.


kuṇḍalī as wearing earrings

DPD gives " having earrings or curls", which I’m gonna make a leap & - together with Maṭṭha - go with “Polished Adornments” - a loose connection with the verse to follow on cultivating clear thoughts. I went with “pure” for pasannena, but it’s also defined as “bright, clear” - which makes sense if the title was composed with the intention of drawing a metaphor between purity of metal adornment & the mind.


Woah! Totally off topic, but that’s so cool!

Boo! :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

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