Questions about AN 6.34

From

https://suttacentral.net/an6.34/en/sujato

Moggallāna said to him, “Tissa, which gods know that they are stream-enterers, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening?”

“The gods of the Four Great Kings know this.”

“But do all of them know this?”

“No, my good Moggallāna, not all of them. Those who lack experiential confidence in the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, and lack the ethics loved by the noble ones, do not know that they are stream-enterers. But those who have experiential confidence in the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, and have the ethics loved by the noble ones, do know that they are stream-enterers.”

I am curious about the word “know” given the context. Does the bottom paragraph mean that a deva or a brahma can be a stream enterer without knowing it -OR- that they are NOT stream enterers not having ethics, not having experience with practicing the dhamma?

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Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation reads a little differently and seems to lean toward the latter option:

The Venerable Mahāmoggallāna then said to him:

“Which devas, Tissa, know: ‘I am a stream-enterer, no longer subject to [rebirth in] the lower world, fixed in destiny, heading for enlightenment’?”

“The devas [ruled by] the four great kings have such knowledge, respected Moggallāna.”

“Do all of the devas [ruled by] the four great kings have such knowledge, Tissa?”

“Not all, respected Moggallāna. Those who do not possess unwavering confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saṅgha, and who lack the virtuous behavior loved by the noble ones, do not have such knowledge. But those who possess unwavering confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saṅgha, and who have the virtuous behavior loved by the noble ones, know: ‘I am a stream-enterer, no longer subject to [rebirth in] the lower world, fixed in destiny, heading for enlightenment.’”

By the way, you may already know this, but aveccapasāda, translated as “experiential confidence” or “unwavering confidence” above, indicates more than just experience with practicing the Dhamma; it indicates someone who has experienced a breakthrough to the Dhamma and the fruit of stream entry.

In the early material “stream enterer” is routinely glossed as “One who possesses unwavering confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saṅgha, and who posesses the virtuous behavior loved by the noble ones”

So Ānanda, I will teach you the explanation of the Dhamma called ‘the mirror of the teaching’. A noble disciple who has this may declare of themselves:
Tasmātihānanda, dhammādāsaṁ nāma dhammapariyāyaṁ desessāmi, yena samannāgato ariyasāvako ākaṅkhamāno attanāva attānaṁ byākareyya:

‘I’ve finished with rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. I’ve finished with all places of loss, bad places, the underworld. I am a stream-enterer! I’m not liable to be reborn in the underworld, and am bound for awakening.’
‘khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇā­pā­yadu­g­gati­vini­pāto­, sotāpannohamasmi avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo’ti.

And what is that mirror of the teaching?
Katamo ca so, ānanda, dhammādāso dhammapariyāyo, yena samannāgato ariyasāvako ākaṅkhamāno attanāva attānaṁ byākareyya: ‘khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇā­pā­yadu­g­gati­vini­pāto­, sotāpannohamasmi avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo’ti?

It’s when a noble disciple has experiential confidence in the Buddha:
Idhānanda, ariyasāvako buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgato hoti:

‘That Blessed One is perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed.’
‘itipi so bhagavā arahaṁ sammāsambuddho vijjācaraṇasampanno sugato lokavidū anuttaro purisadammasārathi satthā devamanussānaṁ buddho bhagavā’ti.

They have experiential confidence in the teaching:
Dhamme aveccappasādena samannāgato hoti:

‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha—visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.’
‘svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṁ veditabbo viññūhī’ti.

They have experiential confidence in the Saṅgha:
Saṅghe aveccappasādena samannāgato hoti:

‘The Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is practicing the way that’s good, direct, methodical, and proper. It consists of the four pairs, the eight individuals. This is the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples that is worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a religious donation, worthy of greeting with joined palms, and is the supreme field of merit for the world.’
‘suppaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho, ujuppaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho, ñāyappaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho, sāmīcippaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho yadidaṁ cattāri purisayugāni aṭṭha purisapuggalā, esa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhiṇeyyo añjalikaraṇīyo anuttaraṁ puññakkhettaṁ lokassā’ti.

And a noble disciple’s ethical conduct is loved by the noble ones, unbroken, impeccable, spotless, and unmarred, liberating, praised by sensible people, not mistaken, and leading to immersion.
Ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgato hoti akhaṇḍehi acchiddehi asabalehi akammāsehi bhujissehi viññūpasatthehi aparāmaṭṭhehi samā­dhi­­saṁvattanike­hi­.

This is that mirror of the teaching.”
Ayaṁ kho so, ānanda, dhammādāso dhammapariyāyo, yena samannāgato ariyasāvako ākaṅkhamāno attanāva attānaṁ byākareyya: ‘khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇā­pā­yadu­g­gati­vini­pāto­, sotāpannohamasmi avinipātadhammo niyato sambo­dhi­­parā­ya­ṇo’”­ti­.
DN16

such a person, who “exists having certainty in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, and who’s ethical conduct is loved by the noble ones” is a stream-winner.

A stream winner is said to have abandoned three fetters:

“But sir, what are those finer things?”
“Katame pana te, bhante, dhammā uttaritarā ca paṇītatarā ca, yesaṁ sacchikiriyāhetu bhikkhū bhagavati brahmacariyaṁ carantī”ti?

“Firstly, Mahāli, with the ending of three fetters a mendicant is a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.
“Idha, mahāli, bhikkhu tiṇṇaṁ saṁyojanānaṁ parikkhayā sotāpanno hoti avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo.

This is one of the finer things for the sake of which the mendicants lead the spiritual life under me.
Ayampi kho, mahāli, dhammo uttaritaro ca paṇītataro ca, yassa sacchikiriyāhetu bhikkhū mayi brahmacariyaṁ caranti.
DN6

and these three fetters are said to be:

Three fetters:
Tīṇi saṁyojanāni—

identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.
sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso.
DN33

sakkāyadiṭṭhi, the fist fetter is defined as:

“But ma’am, how does identity view come about?”
“Kathaṁ panāyye, sakkāyadiṭṭhi hotī”ti?

“It’s when an unlearned ordinary person has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the good persons.
“Idhāvuso visākha, assutavā puthujjano, ariyānaṁ adassāvī ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinīto, sappurisānaṁ adassāvī sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinīto,

They regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form.
rūpaṁ attato samanupassati, rūpavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, attani vā rūpaṁ, rūpasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.

They regard feeling …
Vedanaṁ …pe…

perception …
saññaṁ …

choices …
saṅkhāre …

consciousness as self, self as having consciousness, consciousness in self, or self in consciousness. viññāṇaṁ attato samanupassati, viññāṇavantaṁ vā attānaṁ, attani vā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇasmiṁ vā attānaṁ.

That’s how identity view comes about.”
Evaṁ kho, āvuso visākha, sakkāyadiṭṭhi hotī”ti.
MN44

I would note that this is a slam dunk argument, and that if you haven’t yet fully convinced yourself of it’s truth then you should spend more time with it. I would also note that it is an argument already given in the early Upanishads, although I can’t for the life of me remember the line at the moment. Anyway, once the basic argument that the phenomena you experience cannot be who you are is accepted, the other two fetters are pretty self explanatory.

The subsequent and especially contemporary Theravada tradition has made the attainment of “stream entry” into some sort of mystical, rare, secret attainment.

However when we read the early material it is clear that the three fetters that are lost are lost precisely by having certainty of the buddha dhamma sangha and maintaining good conduct, that is all that is required, and all that is ever really said in a practical sense about what a stream enterer is.

and it actually makes a lot of sense, instead of a “self-view” or “selfish-view” we have the view of the dhamma, instead of doubt we have confidence, instead of following non-buddhist conduct in the deluded hope that it will magically grant us a ticket to heaven we follow the buddha conduct that really will.

As per the above qoute, anyone who has the confidence in the buddha dhamma sangha and is keeping to conduct approved by the buddha dhamma sangha is entitled to declare of themselves that they are a stream-winner. (not monks of course, but that is because of a presumably subsequent Vinaya rule).

Therefore anyone who fullfils these criteria has already cast off 3 fetters out of 10!! Yay!!!

As for the original sutta, it is, as is often the case with SN and AN, merely a combination of the definition of stream winner with the location of the Four Gods, no new information is really provided, except in as much as applying a simple concept (confidence in ones religion) to a weird setting (the god realm) causes confusion.

Metta.

Could you provide SN texts that show the connection of the location of Four Gods with the definition of stream winner? Thanks.

As @Christopher already pointed to, it is the latter option. That is, this sutta is basically about answering: “Do gods know that they are stream-enterers, or do they not realize it [when they are]?” Not all gods are stream-enterers, so Mahāmoggallāna clarifies: Only the gods who are stream-enterers can know that they are, but provided that they are stream-enterers, they are not bound to be clueless; the gods can self-reflect and know that they are stream enterers just like a human can.

BTW, the sutta goes through all the gods. It’s about them generally, it just presents the gods in a gradual list with the question repeated. The point being: all the gods listed at least can self-reflect and be aware that they are stream-enterers so long as they meet the qualifications.

Hope that is helpful. Mettā :slight_smile:

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