Bhante Sujato Pali Course 2023: Warder lesson 12

Thread for discussing chapter 12 of Warder for the class on October 17th.

Meeting ID: 869 8997 6290
Passcode: 2023


Through the run of this class, it’s been fun to recognize new declensions in chants I’ve already been doing, or to learn them and spot them in the wild soon after. :slightly_smiling_face: This daily chant from my local monastery (and I assume everybody else’s too) is almost entirely datives. I think I spotted them all …and guessing kāyassa here is dative…though it could also be genitive (possessing ṭhitiyā)

‘neva davāya na madāya na maṇḍanāya na vibhūsanāya,
(Not for fun, nor for pleasure, nor for fattening, nor for beauty)

yāvadeva imassa kāyassa ṭhitiyā yāpanāya vihiṁsūparatiyā brahmacariyānuggahāya,
(but simply for the survival and continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life)

iti purāṇañca vedanaṁ paṭihaṅkhāmi, navañca vedanaṁ na uppādessāmi,
(thus I will destroy old feelings of hunger and not create new feelings from overeating)

yātrā ca me bhavissati anavajjatā ca phāsuvihāro cā’ti.
(I will maintain myself, be blameless and live in comfort)


Questions from Lesson 12:

Karoti te bhagavā okāsaṁ
My Answer: The Blessed One makes an opportunity for you
Answer: The Blessed One makes that opportunity.
te - can also be the 2nd person dative, so this should be OK?

Prince Udāyibhadda (is) dear to me
My Answer:
Udāyibhaddho kumaro mama khamati
Answer: piyo me Udāyibhaddo kumāro.
Is my answer OK?

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Hey Ayya, how was AABCAP on the weekend? It was good to see you there!

Not sure where the stock answer you gives comes from, but it’s wrong and you’re right. te can’t agree with okāsaṁ, that would be Karoti taṁ bhagavā okāsaṁ.

Brahmali has “The Blessed One makes an opportunity for you”.

That’s literally the same as Brahmali’s answer, so I’m going to say “yes”.

Udāyibhaddho kumaro mama khamati doesn’t seem quite right to me, it would be Udāyibhaddho kumaro maṁ khamati, “Prince Udāyibhaddha pleases me” which is a little different.

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Yeah the module was fun. I am also trying to finish my essay at the moment so I think my brain is a little fried! I think the wrong answer was mine, but in my notes I have them mixed up…

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:joy: Yes, never mind I see what I have done now. I think I shall have a break before asking my questions for lesson 13!

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Do you remember that Bhante said in the last class, vihāra/vihāro often simply means meditation? I wonder if it could be “meditate comfortably”? :slightly_smiling_face:

Congratulations for making it to the final stretch!


I know you didn’t ask me, but I’ve found this explanation:

abodes (vihara) because they should become the mind’s constant dwelling-places where we feel “at home”” — The Four Sublime States: Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity


This lesson contains LOADS of info! :woozy_face: :anguished:


These more like teaching interpretations than the meaning of the Pali. As Dhamma teachers, we have to pad out our talks with things that make us sound like we know what we’re talking about!

The verb viharati often denotes simple extension in time. It acts as a supplementary verb to stretch out a period of time. And as a noun in such cases it has the same implication, that these are meditative states that “stretch out” over a period of time, rather than just passing conditions.

Right! Suddenly things start to make sense and you realize you haven’t been completely wasting time.


It surely does!!! :disappointed_relieved::face_with_diagonal_mouth::neutral_face::expressionless:


It’s 2:25 hrs in the wee hours of the morning…

After seeing the sentence yena yena gacchati, I can’t help trying to be Richard Marx:

yena yena gacchasi, ahaṃ idha tvaṃ āgamayissāmi

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Lots of info to digest.

Just finished combining Meiland’s and Warder’s.
Lesson 12 - Notes.pdf (435.2 KB)

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I know that we’re asked to read it only, but in order to understand it, I have to translate it.

I’m sure I must have made a mistake or two (or three):

bhūtapubbaṃ aññatar o saṅkhadhamo saṅkhaṃ ādāya paccantimaṃ agamāsi .
= Once upon a time a certain conch blower, carrying a conch shell, travelled to the border.

so yen’ aññataro gāmo ten’ upasaṃkami.
= He approached a certain village.

upasaṃkamitvā saṅkhaṃ upaḷāsitvā saṅkhaṃ nikkhipitvā nisīdi .
= Having approached (the village), he blew the conch, put it down, and then he sat down.

atha kho tesaṃ paccantajānaṃ manussānaṃ etad ahosi : kissa nu kho eso saddo evaṃ rajanīyo evaṃ kamanīyo evaṃ madanīyo ti.
= And then, this (question) occurred to the people born on the border: “Is this sound enticing, beautiful and intoxicating?”

sannipatitvā taṃ saṅkhadhamaṃ etad avocuṃ : ambho kissa nu kho eso saddo evaṃ rajanīyo evaṃ kamanīyo evaṃ madanīyo ti.
= Having assembled, they said to the conch blower: “Hey! This sound is enticing, beautiful and intoxicating.”

eso kho bho saṅkho nāma yass ’ eso saddo evaṃ rajanīyo evaṃ kamanīyo evaṃ madanīyo ti.
= Sir, this is “the conch the sound of which was enticing, beautiful and intoxicating.”

Thanks for sharing.
I think you missed the genitive/dative in this sentence and the two later ones that refer back to it. Based on Ajahn Brahmāli’s translation, I translated it as “Of what is the sound (made) which is to enticing, so lovely, so intoxicating?”

You find Bhante Sujato’s translation here: SuttaCentral


Thank you so much. :slight_smile:

Right, but apart from that it’s good. We’ve come a long way! To me, it’s already easier to read this passage than the examples in earlier exercises, the context is now working for us not against us.

More literally:

This, sir, is called a “conch”, the sound of which is so enticing, beautiful, and intoxicating.

Naming it is significant here, as the people had never seen one before.

Also take care with evaṁ, which means “in this way”, “so”; unlike some indeclinables, it generally should be translated.

One passage that reinforces this is in the Satipatthana Sutta. The ending says someone who practices it will get enlightened in seven days. But people often miss the evaṁ in translation, which means “practice in this way”, i.e. “practice as it has been laid out in the sutta”. A crucial detail!


I think mine is pretty much inline with the answer key & Dheeryupa’s, so just posting because I had a couple of questions regarding the lines (bolded below.)

Once upon a time, a certain conchblower, having taken a conch went to a foreign country.
He approached a certain village there.
Having approached the conch, having played the conch, having placed down, he sat down.

atha kho tesaṃ paccantajanānaṃ manussānaṃ etad ahosi:
Me: And then there were people who were foreigners / borderers.
JK: Then those foreign people thought to themselves:
Aj. Brahmāli: Then (atha kho) those bordering people thought this:

Is there a usage of “ahosi” that means “thought”? DPD is giving me this definition, so I translated as “was.” So, “There were/existed these foreigners.”

kissa nu kho eso saddo evaṃ rajanīyo evaṃ kamanīyo evaṃ madanīyo:
Mine: “From what/whom indeed does this sound thus exciting, thus lovely, thus intoxicating?”
Having assembled, that conchblower said this:
MIne: “Sirs, indeed from who/what does this sound thus exciting, thus lovely, thus intoxicating?”
Aj. Brahmāli: “Of what is this sound, which is so exciting, so lovely, so intoxicating?”

Is the “is” inferred, like the cupola sentences where there is only a nominative & accusative? Or is that bundled into the meaning of “kissa”? ie. “from what (genitive)/ for whom(dative) is this sound?”

“This indeed, sirs, named/certainly conch from which this sound thus exciting, thus lovely, thus intoxicating.”

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madanīya - Does this share an etymology with the English “mad”? The OED traces “mad” back to Old English (ge)mád but no further…

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