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an8.29:13.6 themselves → themself ?

DN8:15.4: Ayaṁ vuccati, kassapa, bhikkhu samaṇo itipi brāhmaṇo itipi.
When they achieve this, they’re called a mendicant who is a ‘true ascetic’ and also ‘a true brahmin’.

Close segment with double closing quote, or else ellipses and then double closing quote. The part of the Buddha’s speech that has been translated ends here.

The same again in segment 16.12.


Both are correct. We decided stylistically to use “themselves” in such cases, but I suspect “themself” will become the standard form over the next decade or so. Maybe we’ll update it then.

Thanks, fixed.


Oh, my bad. Thanks, I’ve now fixed this for German.

And I still found the following:

Ye ca arūpaṭṭhāyino is translated “and others stuck in the formless” in Iti 73 and “and others established in the formless” in SN 5.4 and SN 5.6.

It has not been done so far.

Hmm … I still see “Author”, and I don’t see the translation for yena mayaṁ bhotā brahmunā nimmitā in DN 24:2.7.18 and DN 1:2.6.7.

As to Pajapati, he doesn’t appear in this context? Am I missing something?

I only see the word “progenitor” in MN 1 and MN 49. In other texts where Pajapati appears, like for example SN 11.3, the name is untranslated.

Nor can I now … :thinking: :person_shrugging:

Well in some cases it is simply not expanded further, so in such cases the quote has to close here.

The MS is inconsistent in its punctuation, but I think in dn3 it gets it right.

I don’t see a ti after satthā devamanussānaṁ buddho bhagavā in DN 3.

So, this was my revision of your revision. :smile: Thank you so much for always explaining your choices in these threads. It’s very helpful for me, and certainly for other translators too! :pray:

I have also posted some feedback to the notes here, not sure if you saw this. Perhaps in the future we should collect all these things in one place.

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It’s an interesting case. In the “stuck” versions, we then have a reversed verse that speaks of those “not stuck”, whereas in the “established” versions the negative verse is not found. But it’s only with the negative version that makes clear it must mean “attached”, not simply “reborn into”. I’ll make them all"stuck".


satthā devamanussānaṁ buddho bhagavā.’

Let me know if I have messed up any of these cases.

I’ll look at them, thanks, but you can post all corrections here, that was more of an overview discussion.

[quote=“sabbamitta, post:6, topic:29204”]

[quote=“sujato, post:264, topic:26960”]

I think I have fixed all these cases now.

I think I have it now!

No, just explaining my thought process! Use Progenitor throughout.

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With the change of yoniso to “rational” I see a number of instances in AN 6.58 where “reflecting rationally” is in lowercase at the beginning of a sentence (perhaps elsewhere too?).

Thanks, I’ve checked for . reflect and "reflect, I think I have them all.

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ud5.3:13.1: “Cakkhumā visamānīva,
“As a well-sighted man would avoid rough paths,

There’s still a “well-sighted man” left for cakkhumā. It’s in verse however, so it may even be intentional.

Finding some more:

AN4.192:11.1: Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, cakkhumā puriso udakarahadassa tīre ṭhito passeyya mahantaṁ macchaṁ ummujjamānaṁ.
Suppose a man with good eyesight was standing on the bank of a lake. He’d see a big fish rising,

iti44:5.1: “Duve imā cakkhumatā pakāsitā,
“These two elements of extinguishment have been made clear
iti44:5.2: Nibbānadhātū anissitena tādinā;
by the seer, the unattached, the poised.

SNp1.9:8.5: Kacci dhammesu cakkhumā”.
Does his eye sees clearly in all things?”

Does his eye see clearly in all things.

AN10.84:15.1: So vatāvuso, bhikkhu ‘ime dasa dhamme appahāya imasmiṁ dhammavinaye vuddhiṁ virūḷhiṁ vepullaṁ āpajjissatī’ti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.
It’s quite possible for a mendicant to achieve growth, improvement, or maturity in this teaching and training without giving up these ten qualities.

Quite impossible.

I also see some instances of “it is quite possible” that start with a lowercase at the beginning of a sentence.

AN5.151:2.3: Na kathaṁ paribhoti, na kathikaṁ paribhoti, na attānaṁ paribhoti, avikkhittacitto dhammaṁ suṇāti, ekaggacitto yoniso ca manasi karoti.
They don’t disparage the talk, the speaker, or themselves. They listen with unscattered and unified mind. They attend properly.

Shouldn’t it be “attend rationally”?

Thanks, I’ve fixed these all I think.

Hhm, yes, but TBH I am getting more dissatisfied with the “attention” part. In a case like this or say an2.125 & 6, what it really means is to “apply the teachings internally through rational or systematic introspection”. None of the renderings I’ve seen really capture this at all. Let me think about it some more.

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Yes, it’s not an easy one. After a first impulse of following your change to “rational” I’ve then stepped back because I don’t see a real improvement to what I currently have in German. And it’s many files! Unlike you I can’t just change them with a few clicks with Regex—firstly because I don’t master Regex, and secondly because German grammar is so much more complex, compared to English, so that I really have to check each instance individually.

Currently I have “gründlich” for yoniso (meaning “thoroughly”, “going to the ground”) and “oberflächlich” (“superficially”) for ayoniso. I’ll leave it until I really have something that is more convincing than that. The change will probably keep me busy for a couple of days.

How about “thorough consideration” and “shallow consideration”? Just thinking aloud, nothing definitive.

And as an aside, when we start the “Bilara roadmap”, the single most useful feature for me at the moment would be to be notified about changes you make to the English translation. Currently I have set GitHub notifications so that I am notified about your changes going from “unpublished” to “published”. But as these change messages always include all the automatic changes (each time again!), I currently have to scroll through 55 Sutta files just for no change at all in order to find the one little detail that has in fact been changed; and then I might even miss it in this mass.

For the notes it’s even worse, as there is almost no note that doesn’t quote a Pali word where there will then be the automatic Nilakkhana adaptation.


For the moment it would already help if you’d publish and update the notes Nikaya-wise. :pray:

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Comment DN 2:96.1:

Pāsāda is often translated as “palace’ or “mansion”, but in early Pali it meant a “stilt longhouse”. As here, it is an elevated place from which one can observe the street below.

“Palace” has double quote at the beginning and single quote at the end.

The words sukheti and pīṇeti are sometimes rendered “make themselves happy and pleased”, sometimes “bring happiness and joy to themselves”, etc.

Ariyena sīlakkhandhena is sometimes translated “entire spectrum of noble ethics”, sometimes “noble spectrum of ethics”. In AN 4.198 for example we find both variants in the same Sutta.

In the list of psychic powers, “appearing and disappearing” seems to be sometimes lacking. The Pali is often abbreviated, so I would take it that it’s meant to be the complete list each time.

DN3:1.12.3: “caṇḍā, bho gotama, sakyajāti;
“Master Gotama, the Sakyan clan are rude,

The noun is singular, the verb is plural. You can of course say “the members of the Sakyan clan”, then it is plural, but the clan as such is singular.

I am not sure how this is handled in English, but in German the verb would be singular here.

Clicking on these footnotes doesn’t do anything:


It’s not a note, it’s a counter.

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I plan to continue as I have been, publishing notes per sutta. But the updated Bilara should come on line in 2 or 3 months.


Use “make themselves happy and pleased” altho I don’t really like it TBH.

It is the ethics that are noble, not the spectrum, so “entire spectrum of noble ethics”

So you’re saying … that phrase appears and disappears???

Just say “Sakyans”.

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Looking forward to see this!!!

We also find the “noble spectrum of immersion” and the “noble spectrum of wisdom” in DN 10 (and elsewhere?). And I am not sure where the “entire” comes from—do you take khandha as “entire spectrum”? Perhaps “spectrum” would be enough. At some point it’s about this spectrum being “complete” (paripuṇṇa), perhaps the “entire” crept in from there?

The sentence Seyyathāpi, bhante, dakkho goghātako vā goghātakantevāsī vā tiṇhena govikantanena kucchiṁ parikanteyya; evamevaṁ kho me, bhante, adhimattā vātā kucchiṁ parikantanti is translated “The winds slicing my belly are so severe, like a deft butcher or their apprentice were slicing open a cows’s belly with a meat cleaver” in MN 144.

Everywhere else (MN 143, MN 97, SN 35.87, and AN 6.56) the word “open” appears twice:

The winds slicing my belly are so severe, like a deft butcher or their apprentice were slicing open a cows’s belly open with a meat cleaver.

SN21.3:6.1: ‘Sāriputtova paññāya,
‘In wisdom,
SN21.3:6.2: *sīlena upasamena ca;
ethics, and peace,
SN21.3:6.3: Yopi pāraṅgato bhikkhu,
any mendicant who has crossed over
SN21.3:6.4: etāvaparamo siyā’”ti.
can at best equal Sāriputta.’”

This verse in praise of Venerable Sāriputta is rendered in different ways. One way is in SN 21.3, and another way in SN 1.48, SN 2.20, and MN 143.

MN143:17.15: Sāriputtova paññāya,
Sāriputta has true wisdom,
MN143:17.16: sīlena upasamena ca;
ethics, and also peace.
MN143:17.17: Yopi pāraṅgato bhikkhu,
Any mendicant who has crossed over
MN143:17.18: etāvaparamo siyā”ti.
can at best equal him.”

And it seems in Thag 20.1 we find yet another version:

Thag20.1:43.1: “Sāriputtova paññāya,
“Sāriputta, the monk who has crossed over,
Thag20.1:43.2: sīlena upasamena ca;
may be supreme
Thag20.1:43.3: Yopi pāraṅgato bhikkhu,
in respect of his wisdom,
Thag20.1:43.4: etāvaparamo siyā.
ethics, and peace.

Mahatā bhikkhusaṅghena saddhiṁ pañcamattehi bhikkhusatehi is sometimes “a large Saṅgha of five hundred mendicants”, sometimes it’s “a large Saṅgha of around five hundred mendicants”.

In DN16 I find this part a little jarring:

You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, having carefully memorized those words and phrases, they should fit in the discourse and be exhibited in the training.
If they do not fit in the discourse and are not exhibited in the training, you should draw the conclusion:

I think the key problem is the “they”. It reads like “having carefully memorized … they”. So the “they” seems to be the person doing the memorizing, not the words and phases. You could say:

Instead you should carefully memorize those words and phrases. They should fit in the discourse…

I note that Bhikkhu Ānandajoti uses quite a few more words. Perhaps a few more are needed to make it read smoothly.

Hmm, how about:

Instead, having carefully memorized those words and phrases, you should make sure they fit in the discourse and are exhibited in the training.

Thanks, fixed.

It seems that the initial rendering in thag followed Norman’s interpretation, which reads the verse very differently. It takes the pāraṅgato bhikkhu as referring to _Sāriputto, whereas Bodhi’s translation, following the commentary, treats the halves of the stanza as co-ordinated phrases. That yields a better sense. Revised translation:

Sāriputta is full of wisdom,
ethics, and peace.
Even a mendicant who has crossed over
might at best equal him.

Hmm, leave out the editorializing “around”, it is not necessary.

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